100% self-sustaining bioactive habitats?

[Wayfarin]

Hello folks! I'm here to ask a question that I'm sure many people have wondered.

Are 100% bioactive habitats a thing?

If they are, wouldn't that be the best news in the vivarium-keeping hobby?

Hey, someone needed to start this thread!

It seems that the evidence is conflicting. I would not deny that such a habitat would be possible with arthropods and perhaps other invertebrates. That alone is pretty incredible.
But my main question, of course, is concerning vertebrates. Could a 100% hands-off herptile habitat ever be accomplished?
I know that this is often unrealistic. For example, a ball python in a tank less than 30 gallons would probably not be very self-sufficient, regardless of how many plants, springtails, and isopods were in there.
But what about a green anole or green tree frog in a 30-gallon tank? Or better yet, a 100-gallon tank?
Or even better, a one-inch frog in a 200-gallon tank?

I'm sure that I'm not the only one out there wondering these things, but for those who are willing to reply, thanks anyways!

 

[Wolfram1]

Short answer it doesn't work and all experiments are usually to the detriment of the species that is tested with.

Check out the Biosphere projects. In the end even they would fail without external input. It is an interesting concept though.

100% self-sustaining would mean the habitat needs to create its own oxygen....

 

[Smotzer]

100% self-sustaining would mean the habitat needs to create its own oxygen....

Not saying I support the OP’s purpose to have vertebrates in one, but producing oxygen is not a hard concept to actually create, I have a sealed 30gal aquarium that is planted and has Arthropods in it. It is fully capable of creating its own oxygen and carbon dioxide to sustain plant and arthropod life. It’s been sealed since November. It’s a healthy ecosystem that is self sustaining and doesn’t get opened for anything.

30gal Closed Ecosystem Terrarium

• Smotzer
• Feb 26, 2022
• 1
• isopod live plants planted plants springtails terrarium vivarium

Closed system I created on 10/16/21.
Two species of springtails, Cubaris sp. ‘Panda King’, a...

 

[Wolfram1]

I disagree, it is just dying very very slowly, at some point it will collapse.
Still you are right it doesn't have to be ever lasting to bring some enjoyment and yours looks quite good. The ones i have seen all had algae growing on the glass after some time.

 

[Smotzer]

I disagree, it is just dying very very slowly, at some point it will collapse.
Still you are right it doesn't have to be ever lasting to bring some enjoyment and yours looks quite good. The ones i have seen all had algae growing on the glass after some time.

I think that is because people don’t learn to have the right moisture levels and have too much. I’ve been doing these for years and still have some that are perfectly healthy ans not overrun with algae.

 

[Wolfram1]

I think that is because people don’t learn to have the right moisture levels and have too much. I’ve been doing these for years and still have some that are perfectly healthy ans not overrun with algae.

might be, do you have a thread were you post updates to these, i would be interested

 

[Smotzer]

might be, do you have a thread were you post updates to these, i would be interested

No I don’t but I have been thinking of making one! Maybe a shall!

 

[spoooderman]

No I don’t but I have been thinking of making one! Maybe a shall!

I would follow that seems interesting

 

[The Snark]

Check out the Biosphere projects.

Needs repeating

Check out the Biosphere projects.

Fundamental 99.9% self sustaining. Certain molds + organic material + moisture. ANY higher level life form presence exponentially adds complexity and reduces biosphere independence. (More or less verbatim from the bio prof. in his introduction to biology lecture)

 

[viper69]

and doesn’t get opened for anything because Im too lazy to maintain it

You don’t say? Well I’m not surprised Slumlord

so how have you sealed it off from gas? And how do you know it’s truly sealed?

 

[The Snark]

BTW, that is not a closed system. Sustained, yes. But biomass is being consumed, Micro-organisms are breaking things down. It will be interesting to see how long before the tipping point is reached. Probably the CO2 accumulation will be the trigger. Or methane.

 

[jrh3]

I disagree, it is just dying very very slowly, at some point it will collapse.
Still you are right it doesn't have to be ever lasting to bring some enjoyment and yours looks quite good. The ones i have seen all had algae growing on the glass after some time.

Is 40 years long enough to self sustain?

The sealed bottle garden still thriving after 40 years without fresh air or water | Daily Mail Online

 

[Wolfram1]

Is 40 years long enough to self sustain?

The sealed bottle garden still thriving after 40 years without fresh air or water | Daily Mail Online

yea yea, alright that is not too shabby, still not infinite and if we get into the nitty-gritty details might i add sunlight is also an external energy input

 

[The Snark]

The sealed bottle garden still thriving after 40 years without fresh air or water |

One that always makes me go Huh is orchid germination commonly used in factory farms. Seelings inside hermetically sealed bottles, often stored without light. Germinate and grow, sometimes for up to five years or even more.
I was once given an explanation of the near closed loop ecosystems, a couple of hours lecture. Unfortunately it was from Dr. Enari, botanist emeritus. Between loose dentures, an extremely thick Slavic? accent, a tendency to mumble, use run on sentences, assuming his students were all around post grads and talking partly to himself, I got at best one word in 10. A shame, He sure knew his plants.

 

[mickiem]

Size matters. To the OP - If you wanted to keep vertebrates, say even tiny mourning geckos, think of what they eat in a week. I'm not talking sealed, just "sustained" (as the Snark said). Think of the "circle of life factory" you would have to have to create this amount of food weekly and then add the waste consumers that would have to do the clean up. You would have to have a pretty large environment for even a tiny mourning gecko. And as everything grows and reproduces, you would have to have a larger enclosure continually. It doesn't seem feasible that we could create this situation. I am all for bioactive enclosures. But they need our help on a fairly regular basis!

 

[Wayfarin]

Short answer it doesn't work and all experiments are usually to the detriment of the species that is tested with.

Check out the Biosphere projects. In the end even they would fail without external input. It is an interesting concept though.

100% self-sustaining would mean the habitat needs to create its own oxygen....

I AM CERTAINLY NOT SUGGESTING THAT REPTILES AND AMPHIBIANS CAN BE KEPT IN AIRTIGHT TANKS! The question was more concerning tank-cleanings and feedings. If a very small herptile, like a red-backed salamander, were to be kept in a massive tank with breeding prey insects and waste-destroying microorganisms, perhaps it would never need feedings or tank-cleanings?

But as for airtight jars being detrimental for ALL species, I think that some invertebrates can certainly thrive in such conditions. Acarus siro, that notorious mite, can apparently survive in airtight food jars, even without photosynthesizing plants, for... who even knows how long? Some invertebrates are so hard to kill, that it's hard to believe that they could perish after care is taken in order for them to thrive!

Not saying I support the OP’s purpose to have vertebrates in one, but producing oxygen is not a hard concept to actually create, I have a sealed 30gal aquarium that is planted and has Arthropods in it. It is fully capable of creating its own oxygen and carbon dioxide to sustain plant and arthropod life. It’s been sealed since November. It’s a healthy ecosystem that is self sustaining and doesn’t get opened for anything.

30gal Closed Ecosystem Terrarium

• Smotzer
• Feb 26, 2022
• 1
• isopod live plants planted plants springtails terrarium vivarium

Closed system I created on 10/16/21.
Two species of springtails, Cubaris sp. ‘Panda King’, a...

I AM DEFINITELY NOT TRYING TO KEEP VERTEBRATES IN AN AIRTIGHT ENCLOSURE! THAT'S ANIMAL CRUELTY! I WAS JUST ASKING ABOUT THE NEED FOR TANK-CLEANINGS!

Size matters. To the OP - If you wanted to keep vertebrates, say even tiny mourning geckos, think of what they eat in a week. I'm not talking sealed, just "sustained" (as the Snark said). Think of the "circle of life factory" you would have to have to create this amount of food weekly and then add the waste consumers that would have to do the clean up. You would have to have a pretty large environment for even a tiny mourning gecko. And as everything grows and reproduces, you would have to have a larger enclosure continually. It doesn't seem feasible that we could create this situation. I am all for bioactive enclosures. But they need our help on a fairly regular basis!

Well, yes, everything grows and reproduces. But everything does definitely NOT reproduce like mourning geckos. If I were to keep a small frog or salamander alone, it would not reproduce. But either way, you have a good point. I would probably have to do the math concerning how much food goes into the herptile, and how much waste goes out.

I will also put up a separate post under "Insects, Other Invertebrates & Arthropods" about self-sustaining INVERTEBRATE habitats, which I suspect are more feasible.

 

[DaveM]

We could contemplate the scope and stringency of your '100% bioactive habitat.'
Chemoautotrophs survive long-term with no input of light at all, but they do need some energy input (geothermal and chemical).
For reductio ad absurdum, this universe, which may be blossoming so richly with life right now, is slowly dying.
Therefore, within our dying universe as we understand it, no closed system could be self-sustaining forever.

 

[Lyssaerra]

It's also worth mentioning that most projects revolving around this idea are either micro habitats that degrade quickly or massive ones with too many flaws. I would be interested in a 100 gallon sealed enclosure. I think it would sustain itself for a long time given the right species and moisture levels.

 

[Wayfarin]

It's also worth mentioning that most projects revolving around this idea are either micro habitats that degrade quickly or massive ones with too many flaws. I would be interested in a 100 gallon sealed enclosure. I think it would sustain itself for a long time given the right species and moisture levels.

I can't even imagine what would go wrong with a 100-gallon invertebrate ecosphere. Perhaps a build-up of methane?
If it had at least a microscopic dent that allowed air to pass through, but prevented water from escaping, it could potentially last for decades.

 

[Lyssaerra]

I can't even imagine what would go wrong with a 100-gallon invertebrate ecosphere. Perhaps a build-up of methane?
If it had at least a microscopic dent that allowed air to pass through, but prevented water from escaping, it could potentially last for decades.

Perhaps integrating charcoal and zeolite may help with methane build up. It would be an issue in the long term for sure.