Yet another Theraphosa "sp" thread

[Crows Arachnids]

Quite arguably, they can be considered the same species. Think about it, we have genetic/DNA testing now, something which didn't exist when these tarantulas were originally given these names back in the 1800's. It is possible now to come to an objective conclusion with genetic testing, but until that is done, you and I can't know for sure. The old classifications and species names for tarantulas can easily be wrong, they often used sloppy and unreliable evidential standards (like hair on patella/mating rituals) to identify species. . don't doubt this for a second.

In fact, if you did a little bit of research, you would know that there is a current debate among scientists as to whether or not to move chimpanzees over to the Genus Homo (our genus) and then we would have to consider ourselves apes. Some scholars (like Jared Diamond) go even further. He notes that the genetic difference between humans and chimps is smaller than that between some species that are classified under the same genus (he cites lions and tigers as an example--so, unbelievable as it may seem, the genetic difference between a lion and tiger is greater than between a human and a chimp). Thus, he argues that chimps should really be called "Homo Troglodytes."

There are debates all over taxonomy (including human taxonomy as in this example) and if you truly understood the nature of these debates and the inherent dilemma with taxonomy, then you wouldn't be so stubborn in your certainty that these are genetically separate species.

Once again, you are jumping to conclusions of my misunderstanding. You seem to think that 'official' as dictatated by science is the absolute. Sometimes simplicity is the most convincing of complexities, a monkey is a monkey, a human is a human, everything along some sort of line or another will have relativity to one thing or another, we all live on the same planet. Why don't you give up your useless babble about taxonomy here and take this up with the ones who drive the species concept we use, correct them, and once again, as I have said plenty of times, although you denied the notion, rectify this hobby. This entire time you have missed my ultimate point, you may be right, in the very absolute sense, outside our box, above our accepted species concept, but not within it. You ramble on and on about misunderstanding when you are riddled with it. Instead of trying to view everything the same, I would rather appreciate the beauty that is variation. Science doesn't have all the answers, and remember it is dictated by man, you are fighting convention of man, with convention of man, you are a paradox, now be done with this and rectify this hobby, for the last time!

 

[John Kanker]

Theraphosa "Goliath" Genus has been PURPOSEFULLY, and/or unwittingly "Hybridized", w/ Comparitively little Scrutinizing and such

Have they? do you know of successful breedings between the two then?

 

[PhobeToPhile]

On the issue of mating rituals: if the two rituals are different enough, this alone could prevent interbreeding between the species (behavioral isolation as opposed to geographic isolation; known to happen in other animals as well). Let alone producing fertile offspring. Any hard observations on successful and failed breeding attempts?

 

[Crows Arachnids]

Return of the Mack = the Mack is back, baby.....the Mack is back!

Sorry :8o I could Not resist....watched the Movie all-the-way through, just last night. What part of the Bay Area do ya live in Goldie ? :razz:
http://www.impawards.com/1973/mack_xlg.html

Jonathan: You know what is Really Funny How I, and others are SO scrutinized and Flamed, for conducting "Controlled breeding Experiments", w/ over-lapping localed Sp. of Brachy's.......Yet the Theraphosa "Goliath" Genus has been PURPOSEFULLY, and/or unwittingly "Hybridized", w/ Comparitively little Scrutinizing and such
{Not that I feel they should be}
How many "TRUE BLONDIE" MM's are in collections currently ~ a Dinner-plate full ?

All I can do is just stand, well....Roll back, and Laugh

Let's ALL just have a Coke and a Smile

Jason, what exactly does this have to do with this thread? I'm serious, I really don't get it. If you are persecuted for crossing species that is another token entirely. The very fact that you say people have "hybridized" them means you acknowledge them as two seperate species, although I don't believe that. As far as cross breeding, everyone has a view on that, most are negative, you do what you want to do, it hasn't stopped you in the past, so more power to you I suppose. Sorry if you have suffered scrutiny in this hobby, thank passion for that, I suppose, again.

On the issue of mating rituals: if the two rituals are different enough, this alone could prevent interbreeding between the species (behavioral isolation as opposed to geographic isolation; known to happen in other animals as well). Let alone producing fertile offspring. Any hard observations on successful and failed breeding attempts?

Yes, I have seen many failed breeding attempts. By none other, than me.

 

[The Mack]

On the issue of mating rituals: if the two rituals are different enough, this alone could prevent interbreeding between the species (behavioral isolation as opposed to geographic isolation; known to happen in other animals as well). Let alone producing fertile offspring. Any hard observations on successful and failed breeding attempts?

The actual process of reproduction is what is important here, not the mating rituals. Many humans have different mating rituals.. . .it doesn't matter if you breakdance in war paint or say grace before you have sex, you still have the same reproductive process (sperm and egg) as the rest of the members in your species. These spiders all reproduce in the same way, so your analogy isn't valid. . . and A mating ritual would never alone be a valid reason to differentiate a species.

 

[Crows Arachnids]

The actual process of reproduction is what is important here, not the mating rituals. Many humans have different mating rituals.. . .it doesn't matter if you breakdance in war paint or say grace before you have sex, you still have the same reproductive process (sperm and egg) as the rest of the members in your species. These spiders all reproduce in the same way, so your analogy isn't valid. . . and A mating ritual would never alone be a valid reason to differentiate a species.

Alone, no, I agree. Humans have intelligence to guide their 'rituals', tarantulas have instinct, your analogy is unappreciated.

 

[John Kanker]

so where is the evidence to show that sp. burgandy and blondi can reproduce?

 

[sharpfang]

I see, I see - Do Not enter a thread w/ Master-Debators, unless expecting Arguments, O.K. *Tee-Hee*


Insert Token into Laugh Machine :razz:

Have they? do you know of successful breedings between the two then?

I beleive that I do.....and I will be making a Video of my neighbors specimens, sometime very soon...
All my obtained Blondi specimens, have come from Germany, since re-entering Hobby. Approximately 8 years ago....when I was involved w/ Arachnids.....These Sp. "Burgundy's", were Not around.....Yet people keep attempting to mate their LTC Theraphosa Blondi's, w/ these *new* MM's = Anyways
{I don't FLAME them for it though - Most do Not discern a difference}

Jason, what exactly does this have to do with this thread? I'm serious, I really don't get it. If you are persecuted for crossing species that is another token entirely. The very fact that you say people have "hybridized" them means you acknowledge them as two seperate species, although I don't believe that. As far as cross breeding, everyone has a view on that, most are negative, you do what you want to do, it hasn't stopped you in the past, so more power to you I suppose.

I try to Mellow the Down-talking, and Ego-Drivin' Arguments on AB, w/ a little harmless joking, I mean "Seriously" U can always call me, 2 discuss.

I detect frustration from ya.....figured we got along fine, w/ differences of Opinions...Thanx for being interested in my *project* on the phone, and welcoming 20 group A & B specimens, yet - your comment now, *hinting* @ non-support of Publicly I say nice things bout' you - what else do ya REALLY think of me, and my efforts/involvement in the Hobby
{Which is "SUPPOSED" to be Fun - GL 2 ya @ That}

Alotta argueing going on lately I see, re: T. Blondi's, yet Few seem to have Breeding, Genetic and Locale data to support their Debates

Ponder THIS, if it is Determined to be relating/relative to yall:

Why have so Many Goliath matings in rescent years.... Turned out Poorly in various ways ? The two forms appear so Very similar, and are usually willing to attempt to breed w/ each other. Interesting to me, is that these supposed Sp. "Burgundy's", have cute little Pink Leggings, like an 80's exercise facility T. Blondi's - Do Not And there is I feel, something to that.

Now that is just My Opinion, and like Dennis Miller = "I could be Wrong".
{I can admit when I am wrong - Can any of you? w/ out a givin headache from "Debating"}

 

[Crows Arachnids]

Insert Token into Laugh Machine :razz:



I beleive that I do.....and I will be making a Video of my neighbors specimens, sometime very soon...
All my obtained Blondi specimens, have come from Germany, since re-entering Hobby. Approximately 8 years ago....when I was involved w/ Arachnids.....These Sp. "Burgundy's", were Not around.....Yet people keep attempting to mate their LTC Theraphosa Blondi's, w/ these *new* MM's = Anyways
{I don't FLAME them for it though - Most do Not discern a difference}



I try to Mellow the Down-talking, and Ego-Drivin' Arguments on AB, w/ a little harmless joking, I mean "Seriously" U can always call me, 2 discuss.

I detect frustration from ya.....figured we got along fine, w/ differences of Opinions...Thanx for being interested in my *project* on the phone, and welcoming 20 group A & B specimens, yet - your comment now, *hinting* @ non-support of Publicly I say nice things bout' you - what else do ya REALLY think of me, and my efforts/involvement in the Hobby
{Which is "SUPPOSED" to be Fun - GL 2 ya @ That}

Alotta argueing going on lately I see, re: T. Blondi's, yet Few seem to have Breeding, Genetic and Locale data to support their Debates

Ponder THIS, if it is Determined to be relating/relative to yall:

Why have so Many Goliath matings in rescent years.... Turned out Poorly in various ways ? The two forms appear so Very similar, and are usually willing to attempt to breed w/ each other. Interesting to me, is that these supposed Sp. "Burgundy's", have cute little Pink Leggings, like an 80's exercise facility T. Blondi's - Do Not And there is I feel, something to that.

Now that is just My Opinion, and like Dennis Miller = "I could be Wrong".
{I can admit when I am wrong - Can any of you? w/ out a givin headache from "Debating"}

I'm not sure where you are coming from Jason. You are reading too much into what I said, I didn't hint anything, many people view it negatively, frankly it doesn't truly bother me, but I don't engage in it, you knew that from the get-go. As far as what I REALLY think of you, I belive I told you over the phone. I will push this notion till the end, so sue me. I think looking beyond the "senseless debating" would help you, this is an issue that needs input and settling. You seem to be agreeing with me, I'm sorry Jason, maybe I misunderstand your text. As far as admitting if we/he/she/I/ is/are/am wrong, no one has seen that yet, the views are starkly opposite. We get along just fine Jason, if you needed a public declaration, you got one. For the record, especially to you Jason, because it seems that I offended you, I am truly sorry if you interpret my demeanor as being frustrated, rude, or otherwise, I do not intend those things, I find this to be a serious matter, thus I get to the point, I sincerely did not understand your last post so I asked.

 

[John Kanker]

I beleive that I do.....and I will be making a Video of my neighbors specimens, sometime very soon...
All my obtained Blondi specimens, have come from Germany, since re-entering Hobby. Approximately 8 years ago....when I was involved w/ Arachnids.....These Sp. "Burgundy's", were Not around.....Yet people keep attempting to mate their LTC Theraphosa Blondi's, w/ these *new* MM's = Anyways
{I don't FLAME them for it though - Most do Not discern a difference}

So at the moment you don't know because you have yet to make a video of the breeding.
sp burgundys were thought to be around a while back only like I said because they look so similar to blondi they were over looked, although even back then some did believe there was a different form of blondi going around due to the lack of breeding success
Infact I have just seen that sp. burgundy was around as far back as 1977 as there is a picture of one in a book by Dale Lund (publish date is 1977).
BTW I don't think I have ever flamed you or? so why the reference to this all the time?

Ponder THIS, if it is Determined to be relating/relative to yall:

Why have so Many Goliath matings in rescent years.... Turned out Poorly in various ways ? The two forms appear so Very similar, and are usually willing to attempt to breed w/ each other. Interesting to me, is that these supposed Sp. "Burgundy's", have cute little Pink Leggings, like an 80's exercise facility T. Blondi's - Do Not And there is I feel, something to that.

so now you are saying they are different or what?

 

[Crows Arachnids]

I believe he has been saying that this whole time.

 

[PhobeToPhile]

The actual process of reproduction is what is important here, not the mating rituals. Many humans have different mating rituals.. . .it doesn't matter if you breakdance in war paint or say grace before you have sex, you still have the same reproductive process (sperm and egg) as the rest of the members in your species. These spiders all reproduce in the same way, so your analogy isn't valid. . . and A mating ritual would never alone be a valid reason to differentiate a species.

It does, however, serve as an indicator of genetic isolation from the rest of the population, which in turn can mark the beginning of species formation. After long enough, it becomes one of the differences between what are now two separate species. At least one African species of bird has two genetically isolated populations due to this kind of difference.

 

[John Kanker]

I believe he has been saying that this whole time.

Oh ok. Sorry I just find his posts are really confusing. or I am reading them wrong.

 

[The Mack]

So at the moment you don't know because you have yet to make a video of the breeding.

Why do so many fail to understand that it isn't my standpoint that needs to provide the evidence. You are claiming that there is a third species (a spaghetti monster as I used before), and then after people like me or sharpfang ask you for evidence to support this, you turn around and say "well you don't have proof that they are mating in nature so therefore you can't be sure!"

John Kanker, please understand that I don't need evidence to support my view that they are the same species, just as someone who doesn't believe in the flying spaghetti monster doesn't need any evidence to support theirs. It is YOU who needs to show the evidence, because YOU are the one making the claim about the flying spaghetti monster/third species.

 

[Crows Arachnids]

Why do so many fail to understand that it isn't my standpoint that needs to provide the evidence. You are claiming that there is a third species (a spaghetti monster as I used before), and then after people like me or sharpfang ask you for evidence to support this, you turn around and say "well you don't have proof that they are mating in nature so therefore you can't be sure!"

John Kanker, please understand that I don't need evidence to support my view that they are the same species, just as someone who doesn't believe in the flying spaghetti monster doesn't need any evidence to support theirs. It is YOU who needs to show the evidence, because YOU are the one making the claim about the flying spaghetti monster/third species.

No, John, you are correct. As it has been stated before and by a famous Judge, "Sometimes people can only see through their own eyes". Both sides of this debate need evidence, stick to your guns. Whether or not it is Mack's confusion of claim, at this point is no longer valueable, he needs to back it up.

 

[The Mack]

It does, however, serve as an indicator of genetic isolation from the rest of the population, which in turn can mark the beginning of species formation. After long enough, it becomes one of the differences between what are now two separate species. At least one African species of bird has two genetically isolated populations due to this kind of difference.

You are contradicting yourself. If the populations are GENETICALLY ISOLATED as you say, then there is DNA testing that can be done to confirm this. The whole reason these birds are considered separate species then is based on this genetic isolation which has nothing to do at all with their mating rituals. Without this key genetic isolation, you wouldn't be able to claim that they were separate species based on their mating rituals.

Sure, some species may have different mating rituals, but this is just as unreliable as using color or amount of hair to classify species. It really tells us NOTHING about the species itself at all.

 

[PhobeToPhile]

I think you are misunderstanding what I said. The two populations still belong to the same species in the bird example: However, they are reproductively isolated, and do not interbeed, indicating that they may well diverge into separate species in the future. It was just some food for thought. Actual infertility is another matter entirely.

 

[The Mack]

No, John, you are correct. . . . he needs to back it up.

Okay, I'm working on it. Just after I finish writing a paper providing evidence that the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist. Because if I don't finish that paper and provide my "evidence," then this flying spaghetti monster debate could go on for ever!

I think you are misunderstanding what I said. The two populations still belong to the same species in the bird example: However, they are reproductively isolated, and do not interbeed, indicating that they may well diverge into separate species in the future. It was just some food for thought. Actual infertility is another matter entirely.

This is interesting, I would love to read further about this. I can't think of any examples off the top of my head where members of the same species genetically speaking are reproductively isolated in the wild. . .at least that we can prove anyway. Do you have a link to this ?

 

[John Kanker]

so post 181 means nothing then well thats fine because I gave you some limited evidence showing how there has been no captive breeding success between blondi x burgendy yet there has been breeding success between burgendy x burgendy and blondi x blondi. Ok I know full to well that this is not be all and end all but it is a dam sight more evidence to show they are different to what you have given to show they are the same. Oh but don't have to give any evidence to this as I forgot you don't have to give any evidence to say that something is the same.

did you see post 191? that is an interesting DNA look at things but will off course not be able to be taken into account for the simple reason you do not want to take it into account.
You only have one way of looking at this and do not even consider a different view from your own so it is dead end descussion. There really is no point to continue. Even if the DNA evidence was there you would not beleive them to be different because it is fix set in youir head and you are not even open to the idea that they even might be different.
This is fine by me as long as it is fine with you that I will be treating them as if different species.

 

[PhobeToPhile]

This is interesting, I would love to read further about this. I can't think of any examples off the top of my head where members of the same species genetically speaking are reproductively isolated in the wild. . .at least that we can prove anyway. Do you have a link to this ?

It was several yaers back in an issue of Science News...give me a bit to see if I could find a link. As I recall, it had something to do with either mating habits or song.