why are people doing this?!

[barabootom]

Where is your information backing this statement up?:?
I see no reason at all that will prevent them from breeding in the future.

I don't have a source, but I used to breed Hyalophora cecropia and Hyalophora colombia. (I know this occurs in the wild quite often because I observed it) The larvae would mature and the moths would hatch and breed and produce infertile eggs. I think there's a good chance the albovagans will be infertile. I guess you gotta try it to find out.

I personally don't like the idea of hybrids unless it's done by someone who is responsible enough to keep them out of the market.

 

[bliss]

Where is your information backing this statement up?:?
I see no reason at all that will prevent them from breeding in the future.

LOL exactly what i was about to type out, ryan

those you have aren't even breeding age/size yet are they?

btw, ryan isn't supplying the hobby with these hybrids the hybrids you sometimes see pop up for sale come from another source(s).

peace out

 

[AzJohn]

I have no problem with what Ryan and Sam and others are doing. I have a few hybrids, and as long as I know what they are and what the cross is then it's fine. The big problem with hybridization is that a lot of people are doing it without any real idea about what they are doing. Breeding wild caught Avics or buying the Red Rump from the pets store without knowing the species name is were a lot of problems are. Then people sell Avic avic that are really somthing else and B Vagans that are vagans/angustum mutts.

John

 

[squinn]

And FTR I am a younger member of the hobby.

I have no problem with what Ryan and Sam and others are doing. I have a few hybrids, and as long as I know what they are and what the cross is then it's fine. The big problem with hybridization is that a lot of people are doing it without any real idea about what they are doing. Breeding wild caught Avics or buying the Red Rump from the pets store without knowing the species name is were a lot of problems are. Then people sell Avic avic that are really somthing else and B Vagans that are vagans/angustum mutts.

John[/QUOTE]

It is important to note how many times have we seen "unidentified" T's for sale which missidentification could lead to hybridization by accident anyway so in my opinion the genie left the bottle a long time ago. As far as possible impure genetic lines of mexican red rumps and such a lot of them end up in the hands of beginner hobbyists (I know I did when i first started) who are unlikely to care if they are pure or not due to them being not particularly expensive and a beginner T. I would also like to point out things like Hyalophora cecropia and Hyalophora colombia which bases solely on classification in my opinion are not technically hybrids but rather sub-species same as breeding an elaphe guttata (cornsnake) to a elaphe obsoleta (black ratsnake) one could almost make the arguement sub-species are so closely related in many cases they are almost more localities and color phases than seperate species.


BTW does anyone know if anyone has successfully crossed avic avic and a. versicolor?, i'd seriously be interested in that cross.

 

[Merfolk]

BTW does anyone know if anyone has successfully crossed avic avic and a. versicolor?, i'd seriously be interested in that cross.

The one cross i would make would be versi/fasciata or geroldi/minatrix! Nothing that remotely looks like the regular Avicularia avicularia or metallica should ever be cross-bred again, because now we are never sure exactly of what we have. People (mostly unvoluntary) mated spiders of different variety that looked similar, and that's the cause of the mess that anti hybrid people point to.

I consider the experience justified if the result is something totally unseen and new ; and not to be mistaken with an existing species. Why bother hybrid to obtain something that resembles an existing sp? I would never do it with sp that are too much alike, and if it doesn't work with the combinations that I have in mind, so be it. It wasn't meant to exist.

 

[David Burns]

Where is your information backing this statement up?:?
I see no reason at all that will prevent them from breeding in the future.

Hennig's theory of biological species says that true hybrids are sterile. This theory says if you breed two seperate species together and get viable young, then one or both of the parental species needs to be reclassified as similar species or subspecies. I am paraphrasing what I read.

Hennig's theory has been usurped in the last few decades by numerous other theories. But IMO still hasn't been totally ruled out.

 

[Kirk]

Hennig's theory of biological species says that true hybrids are sterile. This theory says if you breed two seperate species together and get viable young, then one or both of the parental species needs to be reclassified as similar species or subspecies. I am paraphrasing what I read.

Hennig's theory has been usurped in the last few decades by numerous other theories. But IMO still hasn't been totally ruled out.

David, are you referring to Willi Hennig? Part of my research is on the nature of species, and I don't know of anyone who's subscribed to Hennig's view. But then, there are over 20 different species 'concepts,' including my own I've published on recently.

Interfertility is not a requirement to discern species. If it were, then most orchids around the world would be the same species.

 

[squinn]

David, are you referring to Willi Hennig? Part of my research is on the nature of species, and I don't know of anyone who's subscribed to Hennig's view. But then, there are over 20 different species 'concepts,' including my own I've published on recently.

Interfertility is not a requirement to discern species. If it were, then most orchids around the world would be the same species.

I have to agree with that statement 100% If you can breed old world colubrids successfully with new world colubrids and still have them viable (thinking here specifically of korean ratsnakexcornsnake) anything is possible. Not to mention the success of breeding Boids from different continents together successfully, not sure if anyone has proved out the offspring on those yet but I am unaware of any reptile hybrid that is known to be 100% sterile so I see no reason to believe arachnids would be sterile although I admit the door must be left open to that possible just a bit.

 

[FuzzOctave]

I figured I'd throw in my $0.02. 1) People are going to do whatever they wish when it comes to animals in their care. 2) People are always going to be curious enough to find answers to questions that sometimes shouldn't be asked. (IMHO)

I'm all for any of you doing what you see fit to entertain yourselves, or further your knowledge, so long as these hybrids DO NOT ever make it into trade, identified as some "legitimate" species. How does one make that guarantee?

I guess what I'm saying is that I totally disagree with hybridizing, but it's an individual's decision to make and my opinion is just that: mine.

:wall:

 

[David Burns]

David, are you referring to Willi Hennig? Part of my research is on the nature of species, and I don't know of anyone who's subscribed to Hennig's view. But then, there are over 20 different species 'concepts,' including my own I've published on recently.

Interfertility is not a requirement to discern species. If it were, then most orchids around the world would be the same species.

I only posted it as a response to someone asking for info on backing up another post. I did mention that this theory is not the only one. This is the theory that was used to define species for decades. Many of the species that we deal with were defined this way.

 

[Kirk]

I'm all for any of you doing what you see fit to entertain yourselves, or further your knowledge, so long as these hybrids DO NOT ever make it into trade, identified as some "legitimate" species. How does one make that guarantee?

The best way to preclude invalid species names getting distributed is to avoid terms like "albovagans," as I've seen in this thread. If one wants to refer to a hybrid, then use the notation, B. vagans x B. albopilosum.

 

[patrick86]

Just curious Ryan did you breed the two hybrids in the photo? They are very unique looking. Thanks.

 

[Kirk]

I only posted it as a response to someone asking for info on backing up another post. I did mention that this theory is not the only one. This is the theory that was used to define species for decades. Many of the species that we deal with were defined this way.

I just found it intriguing to see Hennig's name pop up here. Usually he's referred to among us nerdy systematists.

 

[matthias]

Hennig's theory of biological species says that true hybrids are sterile. This theory says if you breed two seperate species together and get viable young, then one or both of the parental species needs to be reclassified as similar species or subspecies. I am paraphrasing what I read.

Hennig's theory has been usurped in the last few decades by numerous other theories. But IMO still hasn't been totally ruled out.

you forgot an important part of that theory. It says if two animals breed IN NATURE. It says nothing about human intervention.

 

[Kirk]

you forgot an important part of that theory. It says if two animals breed IN NATURE. It says nothing about human intervention.

Interfertility in nature predates Hennig, e.g. the biological species concept. The difficulty, however, is that hybrid zones are a reality. Also, asexual and obligate hermaphroditic organisms are not given consideration. And, for example, for organisms that are identical but distributed on far flung islands, they are still referred to the same species, yet clearly are unable to interbreed.

 

[Euronymous]

I have a serious problem with these animals. First of all they are very pretty. Second of all I don't how much they cost or where to get them; bringing me to my fourth problem, I probably cant afford one even if I could. And for the final problem? I am so bored that I writing this.

Nice pics talkin

 

[Euronymous]

On a serious note, would you put a new set of wheel on a stock 65 mustang? These animals are not in captivity, and assuming they wont be- whats the big deal? Some one mentioned ball python morphs. You can guy CH or CB "naturals" or you can morphs. The thing is keeping the hyrids and possibly color morphs in arachnids while maintaining an even healthier stock of "pure" species. Just my thoughts, it does not matter; maybe a thought will be had from it.

 

[Kirk]

You can guy CH or CB "naturals" or you can morphs. The thing is keeping the hyrids and possibly color morphs in arachnids while maintaining an even healthier stock of "pure" species. Just my thoughts, it does not matter; maybe a thought will be had from it.

Technically, there are no issues with hybrids in captivity if one's intent is to produce something that looks different.

Where there might be issues is if one is selling individuals with no clear indication that they're hybrids. Those interested in future breeding would certainly want to know such matters.

 

[Merfolk]

The thing is keeping the hyrids and possibly color morphs in arachnids while maintaining an even healthier stock of "pure" species. Just my thoughts, it does not matter; maybe a thought will be had from it.

Pretty much it. Hybrids should remain an occasional occurrence.

 

[Venom]

Technically, there are no issues with hybrids in captivity if one's intent is to produce something that looks different.

Where there might be issues is if one is selling individuals with no clear indication that they're hybrids. Those interested in future breeding would certainly want to know such matters.

What it does do, on the other hand, is waste breeding efforts. It consumes time, and often males that could be used to produce viable, pure-species offspring. Many of our T's are NOT available for import anymore, and are maintained in captivity by our breeding efforts. Diverting time and specimens to pointless and fruitless hybridizing is detrimental to our efforts to increase the number of specimens of many rarer species, and thereby hurts our hobby.