White acting weird? Not sure what it is..

[Loyd]

Hey Guys,

I'm quite new to Tarantulas and currently have 3 of them and owned for around a year or so and in that time i have never seen this happen or never heard about it happening. All my T's have been pretty much fine until i noticed my Brazilian white knee is acting weird with its feet, legs, like its unstable or something. Is it ready to molt or something or DKS (Dyskinetic Syndrome)? it can't be hungry as i feed him quite often and water is fine. I thought at first it might be the substrate, but its been in this cage for around 6 months and never had any problems or did this before, so not sure what it could be.

I've uploaded a vid below. Any help would be much appreciated! Little worried about him. Thanks!

[video=youtube;qWvE_3M6cGw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWvE_3M6cGw[/video]

---------- Post added 12-10-2012 at 05:09 PM ----------



T is now on it's back and looks like its trying to get up and going mad. What shall i do? its kicking its legs everywhere on its back? definitely doesn't look like a molt, leave it or what? -worried-

 

[tarantulagirl10]

Wow, definitely looks like something is wrong. There are no pesticides being used in your house? What kind of substrate is that? What do you feed and where do you get it from?

 

[Loyd]

I know, im a little worried, he was perfectly fine a few days ago. Nope, there is nothing being used in my house, its clean and the Tarantulas are in my large closet, no windows or anything, but is the correct temp and humid. The substrate is ProRep Spider Life Substrate, ive used this before and never had any problems.

Spider is on its back..

 

[MarkmD]

It does sound like your doing every thing correctly, can't be sure if it's the substrate as some T's tip toe around if they don't like it, by the video it doesn't look like it's that. I've never had your problem so can't tell what it is sorry.

 

[Loyd]

Thanks for your reply. I'll just wait it out i guess and ill see how it goes, the spider is on its back at the moment though kickings it legs, it doesn't look like its molting though, but i wouldn't want to stress it out and disturb it if it is attempting a molt. Yes, i take care of them really well, its very strange how this has suddenly happened and not sure what to do really. There is a lot of wood inside the cage, wouldn't the T just go on one of those or up the sides if it didn't like the substrate. It's been in there a while though and never seen it act up like this, all my other T's are perfectly normal, he was until a few days ago and starting tripping suddenly.

Any other advise would be much appreciated.

Loyd

 

[spiderengineer]

when was the last time it molted? Also have you done anything different with him in the last few days? like fed him different food, maybe added something new to its enclosure?

 

[MarkmD]

You could change it's setup, new substrate,hide etc, sometimes it works.

 

[Curious jay]

Thanks for your reply. I'll just wait it out i guess and ill see how it goes, the spider is on its back at the moment though kickings it legs, it doesn't look like its molting though, but i wouldn't want to stress it out and disturb it if it is attempting a molt. Yes, i take care of them really well, its very strange how this has suddenly happened and not sure what to do really. There is a lot of wood inside the cage, wouldn't the T just go on one of those or up the sides if it didn't like the substrate. It's been in there a while though and never seen it act up like this, all my other T's are perfectly normal, he was until a few days ago and starting tripping suddenly.

Any other advise would be much appreciated.

Loyd

What type of woods are you using in the enclosure? As some secrete natural pesticides, which over time will harm your T.


Edit: couldn't see a video link?

 

[Storm76]

What type of woods are you using in the enclosure? As some secrete natural pesticides, which over time will harm your T.

That and what kind of feeders? Did you feed any from the same batch to other T's? Are they behaving weird, too? To me, looks like a) parasites or b) food intoxication maybe? Always makes you sad having to see such

 

[MarkmD]

Yeah it's possible storm76, I didn't think at the time, that maybe it's picked up something from it's food, and this has made it react like it's doing, infection of sorts. @ OP I looked at the post the video is on, I think that the enclosure your T's in could be to big in hight, not sure because can't see the whole thing. post a pic of the setup, how is your T acting today?

 

[Loyd]

Thanks for all the replies.

I feed the T just general wax worms of such and crickets of all sizes, i feed my other two T's the same stuff and no problems. The other two T's though have different setups though, such as the substrate and items in its enclosure. The wood that is inside of all enclosures and isn't just taken from outside or a forest, it was purchased in a pet shop. I can't really think of anything that caused a problem really with my white knee.

I've had these T's for quite a while and just been doing what i normally do. I've now decided to pick up the T up on its back and quickly and safely put it in some brand new different substrate in a different enclosure just like my other T's have away from the enclosure it was previously in. The T is just moving but lying on its back, like its kicking. I've just left him in there to see what happens, he's doing what he was previously doing, looks like he's molting but it doesn't appear a molt, it looks like he's kicking but looks like he's in pain since he's moving his fangs a lot too.

What more can i do? ill just need to wait it out i guess, i have left him in there in new substrate and a new enclosure, its quiet in there, so we will see. Currently on its back still. Very worried about him and doesn't look happy at all, ill check back in the next 5-6 hours. -worried- Very sad.

 

[MarkmD]

Yeah you'll just have to wate it out, my Avic had a similar problem about a month back before molting, she would spasm of sort didn't really know what to do, as it never happened before, I just wated till she molted and hardened then Change the setup but sill in the same enclosure and it stopped.

 

[Tarac]

Are you absolutely certain it's getting enough water? You can try giving it small amounts of water via a dropper if it's possible it's dehydrated. Did anyone in your house receive doses of flea/tick meds recently or possibly something like a molting inhibitor for pest treatment?

This would qualify as exhibiting dyskinesia (NOT dyskinetic syndrome, an imaginary disease name made up by hobbyists) as it is obviously having trouble with motor control. Why it is dyskinetic (meaning simply and only 'unable to move properly') could be any of a number of reasons. Have to start brainstorming to see what could be different in its care regimen if you want to isolate the cause. These things are always mysterious and tricky, you may unfortunately not ever figure out what is wrong. Just try to keep it hydrated and possibly a little warmer than average RT (if you don't keep them especially warm already- what temps are you keeping at?) and cross your fingers. Sorry this is happening to your poor T, it is sad and frustrating to deal with. Good luck!

 

[Loyd]

Are you absolutely certain it's getting enough water? You can try giving it small amounts of water via a dropper if it's possible it's dehydrated. Did anyone in your house receive doses of flea/tick meds recently or possibly something like a molting inhibitor for pest treatment?

This would qualify as exhibiting dyskinesia (NOT dyskinetic syndrome, an imaginary disease name made up by hobbyists) as it is obviously having trouble with motor control. Why it is dyskinetic (meaning simply and only 'unable to move properly') could be any of a number of reasons. Have to start brainstorming to see what could be different in its care regimen if you want to isolate the cause. These things are always mysterious and tricky, you may unfortunately not ever figure out what is wrong. Just try to keep it hydrated and possibly a little warmer than average RT (if you don't keep them especially warm already- what temps are you keeping at?) and cross your fingers. Sorry this is happening to your poor T, it is sad and frustrating to deal with. Good luck!

Thanks for that information. Yes, i always have fresh water for them, my Brazilian White Knee is always on the water bowl, so i always need to keep refilling it every few days. The room temp is just about right, its not cold or warm, its in a fairly medium sized closet with the door always remained locked.

@flea meds, i can honestly say that my mother has recently used these for my cat, but its only a few drops of the stuff, it isn't sprayed or used every day, she's told me that she puts it behind the cats neck, around 4 drops, funny enough, i didn't know until ive just asked. Although, i am allergic to cats and the cat knows that for sure, it doesn't go in any of my rooms and knows to stay out, the cat can't get in anyways since the doors are always locked and closed. Specially my closet. Other than that, there isn't anything else sprayed or used. T is in a up right position now and remains put, it was on its back before i left, but looks very unstable and cannot walk. Abdomen going fairly dark, could be ready for a molt, since its been a few months since a molt.

 

[CarpeGecko]

I'm fairly new to the tarantula hobby and have not seen it happen first hand but have heard of folks tarantulas being affected by dog and cat spot on treatments like Advantage and Frontline. Those treatments made to control ticks are a bigger threat IMO since ticks are in the same class as arachnids. These pesticides can easily transfer to human hands and can stay on your skin for up to 30 days post contact. If you pet animals treated with them and handle a T shortly after there's a chance they can be absorbed through the spider's feet and cause problems. Have you handled that tarantula after petting your cats?

 

[Loyd]

I'm fairly new to the tarantula hobby and have not seen it happen first hand but have heard of folks tarantulas being affected by dog and cat spot on treatments like Advantage and Frontline. Those treatments made to control ticks are a bigger threat IMO since ticks are in the same class as arachnids. These pesticides can easily transfer to human hands and can stay on your skin for up to 30 days post contact. If you pet animals treated with them and handle a T shortly after there's a chance they can be absorbed through the spider's feet and cause problems. Have you handled that tarantula after petting your cats?

Very true, could possibly be the case. Although, i cannot remember the last time i handled my T because it has been that long. I never hardly handle my T's, i must handle them around once every five months, if that. My mother has only just purchased the flea stuff last week and i can confirm its 'Frontline'. The Brazilian white knee is the least one i handle out of the three i have, because of the irritating hairs, he is a big problem and makes me skin itch really bad, so i tend to stay away from him, even when feeding him from opening the enclosure door it makes me itch, so i never handle him as he's full with them, unlike my Baby Red knee who hardly has any.

I've not checked since this afternoon how he is and wasn't on his back like he was this morning, this afternoon he was on his front. I'm just going to give him some quiet time, there is new water and different substrate inside of the new enclosure he is in and away from everything else, so ill just wait it out and see how he goes in the next 24-hours ill check on him in the morning. There isn't much i can do to help him, other than keep a close eye and give him some time. Could be ready for a molt as his abdomen is going black, it was pure white yesterday.

Thanks for your help and replies. Much appreciated! i will keep a close eye and report back.

Loyd

 

[Tarac]

What type of medication is being used on the cat? While it may not be directly transfered (i.e. you pet your cat and then touched a tarantula enclosure, etc.) there is always the possibility of small particulates floating around in the air which could be communicated via a number of sources.

The reason I ask which type of medication (drug name, not brand name please) is because there are several which inhibit molting and thereby induce death. The fact that you think your T may be in premolt and is correspondingly acting strangely is suspicious. Note that there are a number of other pesticide treatments that do the same thing- ecdysis inhibition. So this means don't go and yell at your mom for hurting your T's, we don't know if that is the case. And she is doing the right thing by being a responsible cat owner and keeping her animals free and clear of parasites. However it is possible and in order to limit exposure, if it is related to your problems, we have to try to understand what the likely culprits are and how they may have been introduced to your T so that you can adjust your care regimen accordingly.

It is quite possible to have Ts and cats that are treated with spot on at once. I am ashamed to admit, but many years ago when I first was getting into Ts (and spot on meds for cats were just becoming popular, so early to mid 90's) the internet was not so great and I was not a very informed keeper so I didn't think twice about my T and my cat, now deceased, being near each other despite her being treated with spot on meds (imidacloprid specifically). Like many cats, she enjoyed extra heat and would sit literally on top of my tarantula cage, a 10 gallon with a screen lid and heat lamp (yikes! I know, it was many years ago lol) with her body wrapped around the heat lamp. That tarantula molted into a mature male, even molted once more successfully and eventually died of... well... 2x ultimate maleness. So while it is not beyond the realm of possibility for something like imidacloprid, a known invert neurotoxin, to cause such an issue in your T it is also not beyond the realm of possibility that it is something else entirely. I obviously am far more informed now and would never recommend allowing this to go on, but the point is we should not jump to hasty conclusions since there won't be any way to validate the claims anyway.

What you can do, instead and more productively, is to figure out what few things there are that might have been involved and try to find a way to limit them. For example, perhaps keep your Ts away from air vents that could be directly blowing anything used on your neighbors lawn or dander laden with spot on flea meds for cats on your Ts.

Any further details you can possibly think of may help to discover other possible routes that you can try to limit so it will not happen again. It's like solving a mystery- you collect all the info you can from the scene and then try to resolve the issue using the list of facts you have gathered. Things to consider- are you on city or well water? Do you live in a rural or aggricultural area or are you in an urban center? Does your city spray for anything or do your neighbors? Have you fed the T anything different or have any reason to suspect the feeders you are using? Any unusual change in temperature? Anything new or differently done at all?

These things are notoriously difficult if not impossible to figure out completely because we are talking about a tarantula, an animal that doesn't have a well-vetted pool of veterinary information available for them. The best you can do is what is suggested- limit potential problems.

Best of luck with your T and do let us know if you can think of anything new or any other situational information that might be pertinent (even if you aren't sure- it might stick out to someone here even if it doesn't mean anything to you immediately).

---------- Post added 12-11-2012 at 01:34 PM ----------

Frontline is Fipronil, which is also a neurotoxin for inverts. It is slow acting which is why it is an effective pest control measure for infestations- remains for a while and has enough time to be communicated from the source to an entire colony of ants and roaches and the like. It is known to have an effect on spiders. With this awareness, perhaps be very cautious about the circulating air and small associated particles that may be shed from the family cats. Unfortunately these types of meds are a necessity for mammal owners so the best course of action is to find a way to minimize potential contamination by hand washing, keeping them away from drafts that are shared throughout the house, etc. Can't say this is the problem specifically but it very well could be too so just be armed with this knowledge and use due diligence to limit exposure.

 

[MarkmD]

You said your T is always at the water dish and you refill it a couple of times a week. There is a change there's something in the water, even fresh water can contain bacteria that may not effect you but possibly the T, it's not completely unusual for T's to be around the water dish, but if its that often, then ether it's to hot and needs a drink/cool down or not getting enough nutrition from it's food so supplement from water. Just an idea can't be completely sure.

 

[Loyd]

You said your T is always at the water dish and you refill it a couple of times a week. There is a change there's something in the water, even fresh water can contain bacteria that may not effect you but possibly the T, it's not completely unusual for T's to be around the water dish, but if its that often, then ether it's to hot and needs a drink/cool down or not getting enough nutrition from it's food so supplement from water. Just an idea can't be completely sure.

Yes, he is on the water bowl quite often and my other T's are never around the water bowl, the room is fairly decent temp and not hot or cold. The food i feed him definitely will have some good nutrients in, he eats a hell of a lot my Brazilian white knee. What are you really meant to use? Rain or purified water? i am pretty sure using the water from the tap isn't too bad and wouldn't cause this. But you never no.. :S

@Tarac

Many thanks for all the information i very much appreciate it. Oh i know, i just said have you been using anything lately for the cat and she mentioned Frontline. I'm in a city, no vents or windows inside the closet area and far away from everyone else and its really quiet in there too when the door is locked, the room is locked every-time to stop anyone going in (Kids, Cats, etc.).

The wood inside the cage is from the pet shop so it isn't that, the substrate is perfectly fine and purchased from there too. The only possible thing i can think of is feeding one of my other T's then like an idiot putting it back in the worm pot, sometimes if i see my T doesn't want the food ill just put it back inside the pot? but what if my T bitten the worm and then i had put it back in the pot and gave it my Brazilian white knee, if it was bitten wouldn't the worm die anyways? so i doubt its that.

The last and final thing i can remember and only just thought about it. A couple of months ago my friend was telling me he feeds his T's large Earth Worms from his backyard. Anyways, i had thought it would of been alright if they are free from pesticides that is and where you was digging it was far away from any plants or chemicals. Then a few months later my pet store closed for maintenance for a month or so while they are re-decorating and would be closed. I did some research to find out if feeding earth worms would be an OK idea and would be safe, people had said they where safe to feed to T's, so this one day i went out and got some large big earth worms and gave each one of my T's a earth worm, to be honest they look liked they enjoyed them better than anything else i have given to them. Since they are fairly big in length, it would last them till the store re-opened the following few weeks. That was around 2 months ago and my T's have been perfectly fine. But then my Brazilian white knee had problems, he looks like hes paralysed, like he can't move his feet or legs or can't stand up? my other T's are perfectly normal and acting normal.

That is pretty much everything i can remember. If these are the problems, as you said above, it only takes a little Frontline to travel from your hands or even onto the food or onto the T, the earth worms could of had some sort of disease, i don't know but you don't really think about these little things that could cause some big problems, even with the water with the bacteria. Thanks for your replies. Very sad about my Brazilian white knee and not sure what to do now. He just looks like he's dying. Very very sad to see, such a beautiful T.

Loyd

 

[MarkmD]

That could be your problem, never feed your T's from anything out side, they can hold many pesticides fast acting and slow acting etc, if your T's are healthy and been fed on a regular basis with water, then a couple of weeks extra is fine, most likely they would all revert to fasting period and even a couple of months is fine, so again please don't feed anything from outside.