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Which T has the most potent venom?

Discussion in 'Tarantula Questions & Discussions' started by poppaJT, Aug 30, 2010.

  1. poppaJT

    poppaJT Arachnopeon

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    Which species has the strongest venom?
     
  2. B8709

    B8709 Arachnoknight

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    H. maculata... P. murinus...some pokies.
    I can't say for sure. :?
    It'd be old world.
     
  3. Anubis77

    Anubis77 Arachnoknight Old Timer

  4. spiderworld

    spiderworld Arachnosquire

    Ide deff say its one of the old world arborials forsure!
    But as to which one, i dont know, maybe another member does.

    Hope you get your answer, im keen to know myself
     
  5. Pociemon

    Pociemon Arachnoangel Active Member

  6. Here's some data taken from Escoubas, Pierre & Lachlan Rash. "Tarantulas: eight legged pharmacists and combinatorial chemists." Toxicon 43 (2004): 555-574:

    0.1 microliter of crude venom injected intracerebroventricularly (ICV) in mice:

    Species - Time to death (min)

    Cithariscius crawshayi - 3
    Stromatopelma calceatum - 3
    Paraphysa sp. - 4
    Poecilotheria regalis - 4
    Grammostola actaeon - 5
    Grammostola rosea - 5
    Heteroscodra maculata - 5
    Hysterocrates hercules - 5
    Theraphosa blondi - 5
    Paraphysa scrofa - 6
    Pterinochilus murinus - 6
    Avicularia urticans - 8
    Grammostola pulchra - 8
    Selenocosmia lyra - 8
    Ceratogyrus meridionalis - 10
    Cyclosternum fasciatum - 10
    Cyriopagopus paganus - 10
    Eucratoscelus constrictus - 10
    Haplopelma lividum - 10
    Tapinauchenius latipes - 12
    Hysterocrates gigas - 15
    Megaphobema velvetosoma - 16
    Poecilotheria fasciata - 18
    Ceratogyrus marshalli - 20
    Pamphobeteus antinous - 25
    Ceratogyrus brachycephalus - 40
    Ephebopus murinus - 45
    Brachypelma boehmei - 50
    Megaphobema robustum - 50
    Aphonopelma anax - 60
    Aphonopelma chalcodes - 60
    Aphonopelma pallidum - 60
    Aphonopelma seemani - 60
    Avicularia avicularia - 60
    Brachypelma albopilosum - 60
    Brachypelma angustum - 60
    Brachypelma auratum - 60
    Brachypelma emilia - 60
    Brachypelma smithi - 60
    Brachypelma vagans - 60
    Crassicrus lamanai - 60
    Lasiodora parahybana - 60
    Megaphobema mesomelas - 60
    Pamphobeteus vespertinus - 60
    Psalmopoeus cambridgei - 60
    Tapinauchenius gigas - 60
    Vitalius platyomma - 60
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2010
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  7. spiderworld

    spiderworld Arachnosquire

    Great thanx for that! very interesting

    I wouldnt have thought the 2 grammastolas would be up there
     
  8. kylestl

    kylestl Arachnosquire

    Roseas venom kills before p murinus venom?
     
  9. In mice, yes it would appear so. That doesn't mean a rosea bite would be worse than an OBT bite in a human. The venom affects different organisms in different ways.

    Judging by bite reports (not been bitten by an OW yet...phew!), I'd guess at Stromatopelma, Pterinochilus or certain Poecilotheria sp.

    The problem with bite reports however, is that nobody can say exactly how much venom was injected to cause the subsequent symptoms, but it can give a general overview on potency.
     
  10. Tarantula venom tested on mice is very inaccurate. As many tarantulas have developed venom to specifically take down small rodents. therefore this is very subjective. Also the reason there is little to no LD50 info on the potency.

    worst venom is also pretty subjective. It would really depend on the person's reaction to it.

    That being said, some of the worst REPORTED bites I have come across was from:

    S. calceatum. and P. subfusca.
     
  11. I agree, this info has nothing to do with effects on humans, but I think it's pretty accurate, since most probably mice were from the same batch (may be wrong on that) and equal amount of venom was injected. With humans you never know how much venom the T delivered and whether delivered at all. Just my thoughts.
     
  12. ^ It has been deemed inaccurate due to the fact not all tarantulas will experience rodents in the wild. Therefore their venom never adapted to killing rodents. This would mean some Genus/species will make a mouse die faster than that of a tarantula who's venom never evolved to target rodents. Which is why scientists do not utilize the LD50 system on tarantulas.

    This discussion has been beaten with a stick here many times before. To truly find out what tarantula has the "most potent" venom to humans, we would need a human test subject. plain and simple.

    Either way, Im willing to say it would be S. calceatum, or a P. subfusca. The P. subfusca made a guy go into coma off and on for weeks.
     
  13. Sleazoid

    Sleazoid Arachnoknight

    Somewhere I heard that P. regalis was the most venomous of all Pokies. It might have been on here in the bite reports, but I am not sure where so I can not provide a source.
     
  14. Codykrr, you're right, but the same can be said about their effect on humans, since not all the tarantulas in the wild have a privilege to bite humans and adapt their venom.
    I'm not implying that the results of the experiment can be blindly applied to humans, but at least it gives us some basic idea on the venom potency.

    Here's an excerpt from wikipedia on laboratory mice:

    "Mice are common experimental animals in biology and psychology; primarily because they are mammals, are relatively easy to maintain and handle, reproduce quickly, and share a high degree of homology with humans. The mouse genome has been sequenced, and many mouse genes have human homologues."
     
  15. No, they dont, now depending on what the EXACT question is IE- "what is the most potent tarantula venom to humans". This is what most people mean when they ask this simple question. But since tarantulas have not adapted there venom to kill humans make us an excellent test subject. Though to be accurate, we would need several test subjects who take administered doses to know how bad the effects vary for each person.

    Again, no it does not. this is apples to oranges. This would be like trying to poison a dog with something that ONLY affects humans and then basing how poisonous it is to birds on that....

    Simply put- "SOME" species of tarantula have developed venom that is more potent to small rodents(mice, rats..ect) some have developed venom to affect birds. now the one who's venom affects birds, but not mice(as bad) could be 5x more potent to a human subject as the one who affects mice. but yet, by your standards, the one who's venom affect mice(like it is intended too) will kill it quicker giving it a false LD50 reading. make sense? therefore making people assume it will be more potent to humans because it killed the mouse quicker. when its venom is designed to kill mice.

    this is very true. Also this is why we have the LD50 scale. they use it for snakes, scorpions and other things that have venom which does not specifically target the mouse, then apply that to human potency. This is not far off for a lot of things they do test them for. (scorpions mainly come to mind)

    Plain and simple. LD50 readings or tests are ruled pointless with tarantulas. google- Tarantula LD50 and you will see many debates on the subject. many from the ATS, BTS and here.
     
  16. Keep reading...because of the dozens of pokie bite reports I have read, the P. ornata(robc bite) and the P. subfusca bite in which the man went in and out of coma seemed to be way worse than the P. regalis reports(robc report included)

    Go ask Rob, Im sure he can give you a better answer since he was bitten by ornata and regalis.
     
  17. Pociemon

    Pociemon Arachnoangel Active Member

    I have recently been to thailand where i was among the local population. They have eaten tarantulas for many years, but unfortunately there is not much haplopelma lividum left there, but they told me they got very sick when they got bit by them. Just a few years ago they did live in holes on the rice fields and they had several bites from them. So i am sure haplopelma are no fun to mess with. I guess the bigger chinise haplopelmas are even more bad.
     
  18. Hanes

    Hanes Arachnosquire

    It's not only venom potency but the amount of venom a t could physically inject, for example: the only poecilotheria bite is so bad could possibly be because they are so big, whereas some of the smaller species could have marginally more potent venom but because the t can't inject massive amounts it may not be recognized as abnormally potent.
     
  19. kenzie

    kenzie Arachnosquire

    The reason that pokies are definitely thought to be the most venomous is because their venom is a neuro-toxin. It will make your heart rate speed up, which can cause a lot of things. Such as, heart attack. We should also take into consideration that a tarantula bite will affect people differently. People with low immune systems will have a harder time. People with allergies to things like bees and others will have a harder time. So, basically we probably can't know how it would effect us personally until it happens. I'm not going to volunteer. I'm not that curious.