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Which is worse? Scolopendra dehaani or gigantea

Discussion in 'Myriapods' started by patrick nimbs, Aug 3, 2019.

  1. patrick nimbs

    patrick nimbs Arachnosquire Active Member

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    In my opinion I reckon the dehaani venom is worse than gigantea venom!
    Am I right or am I severely mistaken, as usual when it comes to centipedes supposedly?!
     
  2. Staehilomyces

    Staehilomyces Arachnoprince Active Member

    I though you said in another thread you'd rather get bitten by the dehaani, cause gigantea are bigger...

    But yeah, dehaani have a more potent venom. It's probably not even a contest between the two species.
     
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  3. Teds ts and Inverts

    Teds ts and Inverts Arachnoknight Active Member

    If I had to be bitten by one of those species, I’d choose the S. gigantea without a second thought. A S. gigantea bite might cause more physical damage because of their size, but the venom from a S. dehaani is SOOOOO much worse. Just a quick search of S. dehaani bite reports will show you that this is a creature you DO NOT want to be tagged by.
     
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  4. patrick nimbs

    patrick nimbs Arachnosquire Active Member

    Hey Staehilomyces, yeah I just thought I’d do this thread so that you could reply and I could apologise for my mistakening about centipedes and for being a grumpy person. I am very knowledgeable about centipedes and, since we both have the same species of centipede in our possessions, I was trying to make friends and stuff. I am sorry about being so defensive but I have ADHD so I do find it difficult to acknowledge and admit to my mistakes and I do use a lot of profanity at home but this apology comes from the bottom of my heart and my inner core! Have a nice evening this evening!!!

    Yours sincerely
    Patrick Nimbs
     
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  5. vyadha

    vyadha Arachnosquire

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    Only one way to find out.
     
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  6. richard buss

    richard buss Arachnopeon Arachnosupporter

    Only one way to find out.

    wiseguy
     
  7. Chris LXXIX

    Chris LXXIX ArachnoGod Active Member

    Asian 'pedes IMO needs to be considered, venom poteny talking, as "powerful". In my opinion a bite delivered in a sensible area (neck; head; near the heart etc) by those, altough this may be a very rare event, is a serious medical emergency.

    Those 'pedes are no joke.

    With that said, it's not that a bite from a S.gigantea would be a walk in the park, eh.

    Thing is, when it comes to 'pedes, doesn't exactly exist - like with T's - this NW/OW's venom potency difference, meaning, even NW's 'pedes are nastier than the average NW T's. Plus 'pede venom contains a lot more of stuff able to cause, technically, allergic reactions etc
     
  8. Galapoheros

    Galapoheros ArachnoGod Old Timer

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    It's not a rule of course but the trend is that the bigger the species is, the less venomous it tends to be because they can take down prey by sheer size. The same in the scorpion world in general for example Pandinus is less venomous than buthid scorpions, Pandinus often crush their prey and don't bother to give them a sting.
     
  9. Bill S

    Bill S Arachnoprince Old Timer

    When you look at this along the lines of, say, scutigera, S. polymorpha, S. dehaani, that tendency doesn't seem to hold very well. The truth is that all centipedes have the venom they need to take down their prey - and the prey that smaller centipedes go after are less and less likely to be mammals.
     
  10. Staehilomyces

    Staehilomyces Arachnoprince Active Member

    Centipedes to tend to be a reversal of the trend you see in some venomous animals like scorpions. However, the South American giants are an exception.
     
  11. SonsofArachne

    SonsofArachne Arachnoangel Active Member

    GO FOR IT! For sciences' sake! Of course the proper way to do it would be to get bit, one on each hand, simultaneously ;)
     
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  12. patrick nimbs

    patrick nimbs Arachnosquire Active Member

    Yeah well centipedes are basically snakes with legs because they behave like snakes when battling their prey, are (in larger specimens or some Australian centipedes such as the Cormos and the endemic Ethmos) are extremely ill tempered and and any other centipede as all centipedes are as grumpy as a grumpy old man in a foul mood! But yeah, any centipede of any kind will stand no nonsense and they couldn’t care less who and what they bite and kill!!!
     
  13. patrick nimbs

    patrick nimbs Arachnosquire Active Member

    I don’t think that would be very pleasant, though. But you do have a point. The best way to find out for yourself is to get your hand or arm and put the specimen onto your limb and by all means, let it latch on and spit venom into the stab wounds!!!
     
  14. SonsofArachne

    SonsofArachne Arachnoangel Active Member

    Not me. I'll allow some other brave soul be the one to reap all the glory of scientific discovery! :angelic:
     
  15. patrick nimbs

    patrick nimbs Arachnosquire Active Member

    Good thinking 99!! But yeah, I do not want to see or hear about people being bitten by a centipede of any kind! It’s excruciatingly painful! It would really be a rather unpleasant experience if anyone was bitten by a centipede regardless if it is an Australian specimen or an overseas one, because the huge centipede that bit me is my pet and it is an Australian Centipede as well, and it flipping hurts like nothing else, worst pain I’ve ever felt from ANYTHING ELSE!!!!
     
  16. SonsofArachne

    SonsofArachne Arachnoangel Active Member

    Of course I hope no one out there is silly enough to take my posts on this thread seriously - :vamp: = :vomit: :hurting:
     
  17. Scoly

    Scoly Arachnobaron Active Member

    First of all you need to clarify what you mean by S.gigantea.

    If you're talking about the giant Peruvian white leg everyone calls gigantea, then to my understanding there is absolutely no comparison: the white leg has very mild venom (from speaking to people who have been bitten multiple times) whereas many people bitten by S.dehaani report it as the most painful thing they've ever experienced.

    If you're talking about the current only "true" gigantea, the black which is found in and around Trinidad and Venezula, the answer is we don't really know. The only "report" I know of is from a local tabloid newspaper which said a 4 year old girl died after getting bitten in the face by one. I believe the story is true seeing as they emphasised how rare it was based on comments from the hospital, however I don't trust the ID. You get S.subspinipes along much of the North coast of South America (and they grow large!) and that sounds far more likely to me.
     
  18. NYAN

    NYAN Arachnoking Active Member

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    When we say mild what does that mean exactly? Are we talking LD50? If so, maybe. Overall I find that people underestimate these species, or do not totally consider all the different factors that affect how venom works in Centipedes, and venomous animals in general.

    Venom potency, as in the toxicity of it drop per drop is just a single factor. You need to consider quantity, among other things like locality, the size of the animal, and the type of bite (defensive, dry, food). All of this has a great effect on severity of an emvenomation. Several examples:

    Brown widow spiders (Latrodectus geometricus) have venom that is more toxic (by LD50) than the medically significant black widows in the United States. With that being said, they inject a small quantity, and are therefore considered harmless.

    Many venomous snakes will have venom that is not very toxic by LD50 compared to spider and scorpion venom however the venom is designed to be more effective against mammals and they inject such a huge amount making most bites a medical emergency.

    Anyway, relating this to centipedes, I believe that we really do not understand how powerful many species are. These bite reports that we have may or may not be the result of the centipede injecting a sizable quantity of venom.

    An example is from a personal experience of mine. I have taken many bites from many species, including giant species. I was hand feeding a hungry centipede and it grabbed my thumb instead of the food. It held on for about 30 seconds. This was a food bite, not a defensive bite.

    This was the result: http://arachnoboards.com/threads/south-american-giants-a-word-of-caution-about-their-venom.319020/


    I imagine that this was a bite where the animal injected a sizable amount of venom because it thought I was prey. The result was a bite more painful than any Asian species I’ve been bitten by.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
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  19. Scoly

    Scoly Arachnobaron Active Member

    Well you just turned round and said what I usually tell everyone: bite comparison without dosage information is useless, so I take my words back, In fact you can find my own comment under your thread echoing pretty much the same.

    The flip side to this, is that we rate bite severity between animals based on what a typical (yes, I agree there may be no such thing) bite delivers, not its absolute LD50. If a tiny spider was found to have a super potent venom but could never inject enough to cause harm, we wouldn't list it as deadly on account of it technically having a very low LD50. If a centipede species almost never injects a full whack - is it much to be concerned about?

    But going back to being pracital rather than technical - everyone I've known who has taken a bite from a white leg (including my friend who said he's taken multiple hits) said it wasn't that bad, and I'm yet to hear of anyone getting bitten by a dehaani (bar Mr.Hernandez) who said it was anything other than sheer pain.

    I suppose that raises some questions:
    1. Do dehaanis inject more venom in each bite?
    2. Do white legs inject very little with each bite?
    3. Do dehaanis also inject very little, and what would happen if you got a full pump?
    And another factor rarely discussed is sex. Female Scolopendra hardwickei are known to have different venom composition to males, and it is even a different colour. Some species have a high gender imbalance, at least in captivity (hardwickei as an example again, where it is sometimes impossible to find a male in twenty females). And in some species, aggression (so likelyhood of causing a bite report) may differ between the sexes. And average dose delivered in a bite may also vary between sexes.

    Another possibility, though I have no evidence of this but think it could well be possible, is that venom composition changes over the course of a bite. It may be that venom A which is used in defence and initial stunning of prey is always there and ready to come out, but venom B which contains all the enzymes for breaking down flesh only come out after a few seconds, or in response to the certainty of food, or the centipede may even have some control over it. This could certainly be the case if the enzymes are expensive to produce.

    That last point is all speculation, though I would not be surprised to find out that things are far more sophisticated and complex than they seem. These creature have kept roughly the same body shape for 100's of millions of years, yet are still constantly evolving and refining their behaviour and anatomy in minute ways.
     
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  20. It's difficult to answer. Dehaani has very potent venom, among the most potent of any Scolopendra, surpassed only by Spinosissima and Ethmostigmus Spinosus and a few others.

    Dehaani has very strong venom, most Scolopendra from South American have comparatively weak venom. But because of their large size they can deliver much more venom than most Dehaani.

    Any random Dehaani that hypothetically bites you will deliver more pain than a Gigantea that injects an identical amount of venom. But a full venom dump from a Gigantea may very well be as painful as a Dehaani simply because the more venom is injected, the more painful it will be.

    To put it simply though, Dehaani venom is far more potent than Gigantea venom.

    - Shockwave