WC T's - Your thoughts?

[Vanisher]

I am mostly against it. I understand that when a new tarantula speicies appear in the hobby naturally it is wild caught! Should that stop me from buying it??? Probably not when i really was into the hobby! Nowdays, it probably should stop me!
My stand of view is that captive tarantulas should be captive bred and not taken from the wild! Do i bash those that dont mind wild caught tarantulas? NO!
But for me personally, i nowdays, if i buy a tarantula. I buy captive bred if avalible!!!

 

[Dennis Nedry]

Is familial cross-breeding of siblings really a concern? It isn't for fish and reptiles

Oh it’s definitely a concern for reptiles. There’s a reason certain big reptile breeding youtubers have so many one eyed or eyeless snakes pop up

 

[CJJon]

Oh it’s definitely a concern for reptiles. There’s a reason certain big reptile breeding youtubers have so many one eyed or eyeless snakes pop up

I can't speak to the amount of YouTuber's posting vids of inbred snakes, but every CB snake morph color variant in the hobby is the result of quite a bit of inbreeding.

 

[matypants]

Established captive bred tarantulas are probably fine. Ball pythons are what they are now entirely because of the captive breeding efforts made.

 

[Dennis Nedry]

I can't speak to the amount of YouTuber's posting vids of inbred snakes, but every CB snake morph color variant in the hobby is the result of quite a bit of inbreeding.

It’s probably not too different to what we’ve done to dogs, some are worse than others

 

[lazarus]

I try to avoid buying WC specimens although I assume my first G. rosea was WC and I suspect two other Ts that might have been WC. I now always ask the seller before buying Ts that are not commonly bred in captivity.
If you want an A. chalcodes in Europe you will most likely have to buy a WC one. This species has a wide distribution range so the danger of it becoming endangered due to over-collecting isn't very high. But still I would like to see more captive breedings, I know how slowly they grow cause I have 4 A. hentzi slings that I've been raising from 2i for almost a year and they're still the size of an ant.

 

[Teal]

I will not buy WC under any circumstances, and dealers that have loads of WC stock for sale disgust me. I do NOT support mass collection for resale, ever.

I DO support individuals who collect specimens with the intent of breeding them, providing the hobby with captive born slings of that species, and hopefully reducing the amount of mass wild collection.

My big concern with CB is the hybrid issue. If I can be sure the critter is pure I am fine with it other wise WC for me.

You think hybrids don't occur in the wild?

Aside from the fact that hybrids don't have issues...

but the T's you buy from dealers may come as WC imports without you (or even the dealer) knowing it.

Which is why I only buy slings verified as captive bred (I like to see photos - gravid female, female with sac, slings, etc), or if I am buying an adult it is usually from another hobbyist who raised it from a sling. I pretty much avoid buying from dealers in general, since their business is to get Ts and sell them as quickly as possible... oftentimes without feeding them or investing in their care.

 

[ErinM31]

While I wouldn't actively seek them out, I wouldn't turn down a healthy T down just for being WC. I don't really have a problem with it if it's not an endangered species.

You'd be hard pressed to find CB A. chalcodes adults in the UK anyway.

I’m surprised! While here in the U.S. I cannot be surprised at how many WC Aphonopelma are available, I would have assumed there was some extra headache and expense in exporting them. They are not difficult to breed (I did it and I’m a complete newb) but I suppose people don’t have the patience for this slow-growing genus!

Back to the topic itself, as others have said, I think it very much depends on the state of the species in the wild, what is done to collect them (as in a thread @viper69 posted on pokies, if a whole tree is destroyed to collect one spider, that is horrible), etc.

I usually buy captive-bred but several of my Aphonopelma are wild-caught. My CB AF A. chalcodes is larger, of calmer temperament and out all the time while my WC AF A. chalcodes is just about in permanent hiding. It’s probably coincidence but it will be interesting to observe the temperaments of my CB slings... in another seven years.

One of my earliest purchases does point out the risks one takes in purchasing a WC adult — I bought a lovely AF Euathlus sp. Red (right before they stopped being exported) and thought I could expect to have her for years but sadly she died within a few months. It is possible that she had some disease or parasites but I think most likely she had reached the end of her natural lifespan. In either case, unknown health and age especially are risks in purchasing adult WC tarantulas.

 

[asunshinefix]

I'm comfortable with the idea of established breeders owning some WC stock, but I would not buy one for myself. Ideally, to me, they would be used as breeders and not sold as pets to casual hobbyists. It does depend somewhat on the species though.

 

[jonikniemi]

Always cb! No reason to get wc.

 

[Predacons5]

WC = New bloodlines for breeding to prevent possible genetic disorders.

CB preferred, but no problems with a few WC. The way the hobby is going - breeding T's into the hobby and keeping it here for good before our legislators in the United States legislate our hobby into oblivion is the way to go. Getting as much genetic diversity in our hobby gene pool will ensure their survival not only in the hobby, but overall. Giving the example of Pokies - some of these are considered endangered (not sure which species is endangered to which degree). If there are any WC's they need to be bred into the hobby - there's no fooling around with these anymore. If they are to survive extinction, they might as well be in the hands of multiple people breeding them. In the future, some T's will probably ONLY exist in significantly large numbers due to this hobby.

This is one of the worst hobbies to get into at this point in time, in my opinion. It is far far worse than the orchid hobby. It is almost on par with the Day Gecko hobby, (for those who don't know, extremely few breeders deal with the rare Day Gecko species - in the US, I only know of 1, maybe 2 breeders that deal with the rare stuff), but in my opinion is still worse in a way. With Day Geckos, if you are stuck with one particular gender of Day Gecko for a species that is really rare in the hobby, there's a good chance you are out of luck. In the case of Day Geckos, if you get the rare stuff, it is an absolute must to get a pair from the get-go if the intention is to breed them. More likely than not, Day Gecko hobbyists will not loan you any of their geckos for breeding purposes - unlike in the tarantula hobby (I didn't know loaning out breeders was a thing until I got into the tarantula hobby). This makes the number of species available in the Day Gecko hobby very small. It is so small that it can be unappealing to stay in or grow with the hobby. There are a good number of Day Gecko species that are, in my opinion, teetering on the brink of becoming critically endangered or extinct because not enough people are doing anything about the wild populations and not enough people are doing anything with the CB population. However, there's no other hobby of mine where I feel the pressure of getting as many of the stock I want as fast as possible as with the tarantula hobby. With the orchid hobby, the problem is isolated to a few genera compared to the total number of genera that are known to the hobby and science, and some of these are not prevalent in the orchid hobby because they are difficult to cultivate or propagate. There are orchid nurseries that are from the orchids' respective countries that do large scale breeding projects for the hobbyist. There is not as much pressure for the hobbyist to get everything they want within a relatively short period of time and almost be pressured into having to breed them if the hobbyist wanted to keep them in the hobby. I feel that I can take my time to make good decisions about the choices of orchids I want to get and when I want to get them so that I make the proper plans financially to buy them. The difference with T's is that trade restrictions or bans feels like it is really random or has bad logic/reasoning behind those bans or restrictions in some cases, happening very quickly/suddenly, and affects a good proportion of species spanning several genera, but doesn't necessarily accurately reflect how difficult they are to keep or breed. I feel like I am going at this hobby at a frenzied pace because of legislation restrictions or bans that are going to prevent me from getting the T's I want before I even get a chance to keep them as pets.

For me, if there is a WC I'm getting - it is going straight into the breeding project bin, no questions asked.

 

[Predacons5]

Is familial cross-breeding of siblings really a concern? It isn't for fish and reptiles. Guppies can be inbred to 180 generations before problems. I also thought I read someplace that all of the Psalmopoeus pulcher available in the hobby came from one egg sack produced by one WC female.

As was mentioned by Dennis Nedry - I can say emphatically - YES, it is a LARGER concern in the fish and reptile hobby compared to that of the tarantula/spider hobby. With inbred reptiles being one of the biggest problems in the hobby. I mean this when I say this, but there are in some cases where some reptile breeders are obsessed with making sure genetic lines are well documented. In the tarantula hobby, genetic lines are not well documented, so it can be difficult to determine if problems that arise in the hobby are due to genetic issues or not. When I speak of reptiles, I am strictly speaking about reptiles. I am not including amphibians even though some people might possibly somehow automatically lump amphibians in along with reptiles upon the mention of the reptile hobby. The reason why I will not include amphibians in this conversation is because I am not sure to what degree inbreeding is detrimental to their livelihoods in captivity compared to any other group of animals in the pet trade.

You mention guppies, but have you ever bred guppies before? I have. There are very visible genetic defects due to familial inbreeding in guppies - one of the most common ones is a deformed spine. The vertebrae are so misaligned that the fish have trouble swimming - it clearly affects their quality of life. The more the guppies are allowed to inbreed, the more prevalent the defect becomes in the population.

I can't speak to the amount of YouTuber's posting vids of inbred snakes, but every CB snake morph color variant in the hobby is the result of quite a bit of inbreeding.

That may be true, but have you ever heard of the Spider Ball Python head wobble? Many ball python breeders or in some cases snake breeders in general know of ball python genetic combos to avoid because those genetic lines can create a lethal combo that could result in a significant amount of visible birth defects or still births. When I mentioned ball python breeders, I mean breeders, (as in the plural form of the word - I'm not sugar coating this to protect any one person nor am I going to single one person out), it is not restricted to 1 specific famous/infamous ball python breeder who has a gigantic platform on YouTube.

I'm gonna keep it 100...many hobbyists don't see the happenings of breeding animals. Many hobbyists don't realize how genetics plays a big part in the health and well being of their animals. Good breeding with diverse genetic lines are just as important as husbandry techniques and upkeep.