Want to get a dog (in the future, just want to ask some questions first)

[Bree24]

We actually do if he's patient enough with this dog that's what we're trying to tell you. I was a 12 year old kid when i got mine and i had no prior experience to owning dogs i just committed to him and he turned out to be a family member i will cherish for the rest of my life.

Also yeah, i rescued mine off the street and had no idea there was variants to GSP's, unfortunately it turned out to be a very pure pup that has probably been inbred because he has 0 white fur on him. He's pure jet black and brown even in his age of 10. He's beautiful but his front legs are really giving in now due to genetics, i walk him for 10 minutes every day but we used to hike for 15-20 miles on the weekends when he was younger no problem. Still love him to bits tho and dread the day when he can't walk anymore but that's just life i guess.

That’s upsetting. I have a border collie/lab cross with the same problem. She’s only 5, but she can hardly manage 45 minutes of play without her hips getting sore, whereas just a year or two ago she would go all day. I know how you feel. Sorry to hear about your boy.

 

[Luka98]

That’s upsetting. I have a border collie/lab cross with the same problem. She’s only 5, but she can hardly manage 45 minutes of play without her hips getting sore, whereas just a year or two ago she would go all day. I know how you feel. Sorry to hear about your boy.

Same here, wish you guys the best

 

[boina]

exhibit strong dominant behaviours

I really, really doubt that. 9 out of 10 dogs that people call 'dominant' are scared and misunderstood and do much better with calming signals than with 'dominance'. The 'dogs strive for dominance' theory is a myth and has been debunked by science 20 years ago but, as usual, science can say what it wants, it wont get listened to. The overwhelming majority of dogs strive to submit. I cannot count the number of dog owners I've told to ease up on 'dominance' and calm their dogs down instead - with astonishing results. A dog that is 'difficult' usually just doesn't know what to do because the owner is constantly sending mixed signals and the dog is confused, often scared, and sometimes has given up and doesn't listen to anything. If I go to a dog park I see scared and confused dogs, but rarely a dominant one.

Just a note: A true dominant dog is calm and quiet. No exited barking, hardly any growling, and definitely no showing teeth. The more teeth you see the more scared and the less dominant is the dog. Measured, slow tail movements. Most people are hard pressed when told to pick out the Alpha in a wolf pack, too, and always pick the wrong one. Usually the Alpha is the one that stays relaxed in the background...

Unfortunately I wasn't able to find a good site debunking the Alphs dog myth in English - I know quite a few in German, but somehow the more scientific part hasn't made it into the English trainer community.

The best trainers I know are actually Scandinavians. They work from really understanding the dog first (and not claiming everything is 'dominant' behaviour) and training the dog accordingly.

Regarding the shepherd breeds

I think you might just mix something up here. There are herding dogs and there are herd protection dogs - and German Shepherds are actually neither, despite the name, and despite being on many lists.

1. Herding dogs: Collies, Australian Shepherds and the like. Those dogs have a herding instinct, but they don't protect and are among the least dominant dog breeds you'll find. These breeds are very sensitive to misunderstandings and can become neurotic and stubborn, but they never show 'dominant' behaviour.
2. Herd protection dogs: very large breeds with a strong protective instinct, like Kuvacs, Pyrenees, Mastiffs, Ovcharka. Those dogs can be really dangerous, because they are bred to protect, and protect independly and without order because the human shepherd often isn't there when wolves attack. These dogs decide all by themselves when they are going to attack and they are pretty decisive about it. Additionally they are rather difficult to train and I generally don't recommend these breeds to anyone. My mother had a Kuvacs and it was a disaster.
3. Guard dogs, or what the Germans call 'Schutzhunde'. This is where the German Shepherd belongs, among Rottweiler, Dobermann, Boxer, Airdale, Schnauzer and Hovaward. Breeds that will protect, but wait for the order to do so - and easily trained.

ere in Canada (or at least in the west where I’m from), the majority of breeders are still using Czech stud lines. They’re beautiful, classic, working-standard dogs with straight backs and very few hip issues. I would never buy the show standard, either.

You cannot believe how jealous that makes me. Yes, the Eastern European lines are great - the Germans have completely screwed up the breed, even worse than the Americans.

 

[boina]

@Teal - I still disagree with you on the use of crates and so on, but I understand where you are coming from.

(Anecdote: I knew two Jagd-terrier in my life. The first was the one who committed suicide by repeatedly attacking a wild boar and the second belonged to friend of mine (a hunter) and was just as nuts. That is one breed that really only works for hunters and specialists...)

 

[Bree24]

I really, really doubt that. 9 out of 10 dogs that people call 'dominant' are scared and misunderstood and do much better with calming signals than with 'dominance'. The 'dogs strive for dominance' theory is a myth and has been debunked by science 20 years ago but, as usual, science can say what it wants, it wont get listened to. The overwhelming majority of dogs strive to submit. I cannot count the number of dog owners I've told to ease up on 'dominance' and calm their dogs down instead - with astonishing results. A dog that is 'difficult' usually just doesn't know what to do because the owner is constantly sending mixed signals and the dog is confused, often scared, and sometimes has given up and doesn't listen to anything. If I go to a dog park I see scared and confused dogs, but rarely a dominant one.

Just a note: A true dominant dog is calm and quiet. No exited barking, hardly any growling, and definitely no showing teeth. The more teeth you see the more scared and the less dominant is the dog. Measured, slow tail movements. Most people are hard pressed when told to pick out the Alpha in a wolf pack, too, and always pick the wrong one. Usually the Alpha is the one that stays relaxed in the background...

Unfortunately I wasn't able to find a good site debunking the Alphs dog myth in English - I know quite a few in German, but somehow the more scientific part hasn't made it into the English trainer community.

The best trainers I know are actually Scandinavians. They work from really understanding the dog first (and not claiming everything is 'dominant' behaviour) and training the dog accordingly.



I think you might just mix something up here. There are herding dogs and there are herd protection dogs - and German Shepherds are actually neither, despite the name, and despite being on many lists.

1. Herding dogs: Collies, Australian Shepherds and the like. Those dogs have a herding instinct, but they don't protect and are among the least dominant dog breeds you'll find. These breeds are very sensitive to misunderstandings and can become neurotic and stubborn, but they never show 'dominant' behaviour.
2. Herd protection dogs: very large breeds with a strong protective instinct, like Kuvacs, Pyrenees, Mastiffs, Ovcharka. Those dogs can be really dangerous, because they are bred to protect, and protect independly and without order because the human shepherd often isn't there when wolves attack. These dogs decide all by themselves when they are going to attack and they are pretty decisive about it. Additionally they are rather difficult to train and I generally don't recommend these breeds to anyone. My mother had a Kuvacs and it was a disaster.
3. Guard dogs, or what the Germans call 'Schutzhunde'. This is where the German Shepherd belongs, among Rottweiler, Dobermann, Boxer, Airdale, Schnauzer and Hovaward. Breeds that will protect, but wait for the order to do so - and easily trained.



You cannot believe how jealous that makes me. Yes, the Eastern European lines are great - the Germans have completely screwed up the breed, even worse than the Americans.

Agreed on the definition of dominance, a little cautious on the theory of alpha. Although I do agree that dogs strive to be submissive, they will, out of either insecurity or instinctual drive, fill the position if they feel that their owner isn’t up to the task. In my opinion, it depends on the temperament of the individual dog. Some are naturally more submissive than others. I stand by my comment that the purer shepherd breeds in my area often exhibit dominant behaviour. I never see a German shepherd being openly aggressive, but I do very often see them being possessive of their humans and the general space they occupy. This is fine as long as the other dogs they encounter are well-mannered, but it’s always sketchy when the majority at parks are not. A moderate understanding of body language and proper behavioural correction is important with shepherd breeds and I honestly don’t believe that rookie owners are experienced enough to successfully pull that off. There’s a difference between “just getting by” with your dog and having a truly well-behaved, trustworthy companion.

German Shepherds were actually bred to assist with livestock management, both as herders and protectors. They were sheep dogs in the late 1800s, and I’ve personally used them as cow dogs over the past decade.

 

[boina]

Although I do agree that dogs strive to be submissive, they will, out of either insecurity or instinctual drive, fill the position if they feel that their owner isn’t up to the task.

No. Most definitely not. Whenever I've had people claiming that they confuse misbehaving with dominance. An insecure dog cannot ever be dominant. This claim you make is a really, really wide spread misunderstanding of dog behaviour and it's fundamentally wrong and against all behavioural science. An insecure dog that doesn't get clear and understandable commands will act up and misbehave and be stubborn but it will not ever be dominant. Dominance equals security. And this "They fill the position if the owner isn't up to the task" is an invention from some trainers that somehow got stuck in peoples minds. It never happens. Every time people come to me with that claim I have to teach them to be less dominant - to forget all that dominance stuff - and suddenly things improve.

Dominance is a widely overused concept. In a wild wolf pack dominance plays a very minor rule. The wolf pack is a family group: mother, father, children from several years. Mom and dad set the tone, because they are experienced teachers. They lead the pack, but they don't dominate it. When the children get older they leave to find mates and found new packs. There are no fights for dominance.

Behaviorally, dogs are wolves that never grow up. They retain puppy behaviour thoughout their lives. They don't take over 'the pack' because they are children, looking for someone to follow. The human gives them food and shelter and dictates where to go and when to go - these things alone are enough to make it clear that the human is the leader. Unfortunately many leaders are unable to communicate clearly and misunderstand instinctual behaviour and react completely contrary to what the dog is trying to say.

My favorite example: Human calls dog. Dog is playing and doesn't respond immediately. Human gets angry and calls louder and sharper. Dog realizes: human is angry. It turns around and moves very slowly towards human. Human now gets really angry because that bad dog still won't come as fast as human expects... Complete misunderstanding. A dog slows down its movement to calm down an aggressor. The dog is signalling: I know you are angry, please don't be mad at me, you are scaring me... and get yelled at for its pains...

Do that a few times and now you have a dog that won't come when you call. Instead it may jump around you, looking playful and like it is totally misbehaving. That's actually called active submission... since the first calming signals (slowing down) didn't work the dog now gets more desparate and tries active subission, jumping, hectically waving its tail, maybe even trying to get it's snout into the humans face, instinctual submissive behaviour in a desperate, last ditch effort to appease the human... who gets madder and madder... and then you have a dog that will not listen and always misbehave and then people start to call that desperate, completely confused dog 'dominant'....

Again, dominant dogs are very, very rare and they are not found among herding breeds.

German Shepherds were actually bred to assist with livestock management, both as herders and protectors. They were sheep dogs in the late 1800s, and I’ve personally used them as cow dogs over the past decade.

Yes, originally. In Germany at least, that original herding purpose has been bred out 100 years ago in favor of a general protector. A German German shepherd doesn't and can't herd.

 

[Teal]

I really, really doubt that. 9 out of 10 dogs that people call 'dominant' are scared and misunderstood and do much better with calming signals than with 'dominance'. The 'dogs strive for dominance' theory is a myth and has been debunked by science 20 years ago but, as usual, science can say what it wants, it wont get listened to. The overwhelming majority of dogs strive to submit. I cannot count the number of dog owners I've told to ease up on 'dominance' and calm their dogs down instead - with astonishing results. A dog that is 'difficult' usually just doesn't know what to do because the owner is constantly sending mixed signals and the dog is confused, often scared, and sometimes has given up and doesn't listen to anything. If I go to a dog park I see scared and confused dogs, but rarely a dominant one.

Just a note: A true dominant dog is calm and quiet. No exited barking, hardly any growling, and definitely no showing teeth. The more teeth you see the more scared and the less dominant is the dog. Measured, slow tail movements. Most people are hard pressed when told to pick out the Alpha in a wolf pack, too, and always pick the wrong one. Usually the Alpha is the one that stays relaxed in the background...

Unfortunately I wasn't able to find a good site debunking the Alphs dog myth in English - I know quite a few in German, but somehow the more scientific part hasn't made it into the English trainer community.

The best trainers I know are actually Scandinavians. They work from really understanding the dog first (and not claiming everything is 'dominant' behaviour) and training the dog accordingly.

I agree with you entirely in regards to "dominance." I get so many calls for "aggressive/dominant" dogs - dogs who lunge/bark/snarl at the end of the leash at other dogs and people. These are incredibly insecure dogs, trying to scare away other dogs/people because they are worried about them. People are really surprised to learn their dog needs confidence building and coping skills in those situations.

I have truly dominant dogs, some with other dogs and some with people. The APBT I mentioned previously is truly dominant to other dogs... he is quiet, unassuming, and comes off as very laid back. People constantly underestimate his level of dog aggression because of it. He has never once lunged or snarled at another dog... he waits quietly until they get close enough, often with a slow and steady tail wag because he is anticipating grabbing the other dog.

The dominant bitch in my hounds never puts on bravado... the young, up and coming dogs are the ones always getting in scuffles/showing teeth/acting tough/etc.

@Teal - I still disagree with you on the use of crates and so on, but I understand where you are coming from.

(Anecdote: I knew two Jagd-terrier in my life. The first was the one who committed suicide by repeatedly attacking a wild boar and the second belonged to friend of mine (a hunter) and was just as nuts. That is one breed that really only works for hunters and specialists...)

And I understand where you are coming from, not having a need for crates for the types of dogs you enjoy.

Yes, all the Jagds I have known were that way. Very intense little dogs! If I had more time to dedicate to hog hunting, I would have some... I have done some hog hunting with my APBTs and Catahoulas, but we do too many things with all the dogs to be able to dedicate to dogs with a single purpose.

 

[boina]

The APBT I mentioned previously is truly dominant to other dogs... he is quiet, unassuming, and comes off as very laid back. People constantly underestimate his level of dog aggression because of it. He has never once lunged or snarled at another dog... he waits quietly until they get close enough, often with a slow and steady tail wag because he is anticipating grabbing the other dog.

The dominant bitch in my hounds never puts on bravado... the young, up and coming dogs are the ones always getting in scuffles/showing teeth/acting tough/etc.

Yes! That's how a really dominant dog behaves. And I really don't know how it came to be that people associate a dog wagging its tail with being happy and friendly. A dog wagging its tail is excited... and that can be for all kinds of reasons.

 

[Minty]

What I will say to anyone considering getting a puppy or a dog, it's more work and effort than you can think.

Make sure you can afford vet bills or get insurance.

Tell the dog he/she is a good dog, every single day.

 

[basin79]

I have a Caucasian Shepherd aka Caucasian Ovcharka. Typhon is coming up to 16 months old now. Still a puppy but a large strong "dog". As he's still a pup I've not really noticed the typical behaviours adult strong willed dogs can exhibit yet.

I was extremely fortunate and grateful to share 9 years of my life previous with Samson, a Bullmastiff.

Samson would still occasionally try and see if he could get one over on me even at 9. He'd try and stand above me using the back of the settee. So he'd be over me. No little man. You sit yourself back down.

I'm not in any way an expert or knowledgeable. But in already owning a large strong willed breed I know what to expect with Typhon. Just in a bigger package. Typhon is an absolute dream. Confident, loving, independent and already guarding without being asked or trained.

 

[basin79]

I will add Typhon did run out into my backyard and try and jump to catch/kill birds. I do bang on the window now to make sure they all fly away.


This is Typhon with Pandora my Senegal parrot. Typhon was introduced to Pandora.

This is Samson with Pandora. Pandora was introduced to him. Samson HATED other animals. He would also make sure he was number 2 if males came into the house.

 

[Sykomp]

An insecure dog that doesn't get clear and understandable commands will act up and misbehave and be stubborn but it will not ever be dominant. Dominance equals security. And this "They fill the position if the owner isn't up to the task" is an invention from some trainers that somehow got stuck in peoples minds. It never happens. Every time people come to me with that claim I have to teach them to be less dominant - to forget all that dominance stuff - and suddenly things improve.

I agree with this, just adding that many people call certain stubborness combined with a very strong will "dominance" (probably because that idiotic position filling theory makes people see those qualities in that way), which on the other hand is a thing.

I'm close with dobermans and some of them have that certain, very strong-willed temperament (well, at least in the European lines, I'm from the Nordics so I don't know about the US lines but have heard they have been mostly bred out of their old "working temperament"), which causes a lot of problems if not handled correctly since they also can have protective instinct - that's what they were originally bred for after all. Combine a large, strong dog that you don't know how to read or control with that and you're waist-deep in trouble.
Also, with "control" I do not mean violence or anything on towards that, I know some people read it that way - more like you need to properly interact with the dog from it's early age so you can understand it's temperament and tendencies, and thus teach it to understand what you want. Personally I think forming that certain deep bond with these types of dogs is the best way to get them to want to work with you, which makes things about a hundred times easier.


Still, I would never recommend these types of dogs to people who have not owned dogs or do not have certain readiness to understand their temperament and needs, since if you mess up when they are young you might end up with a dog that's actually dangerous. There's always 1-2 year old males, dobies, german shepherds, rotties etc., looking for new home around here, since people really underestimate their energy levels and did not do enough work with them as pups, and then end up having an unruly teenage monster on their hands.

"I had this rottie/dobie/GS which was an angel and wouldn't hurt a fly" is not a good basis to recommend these breeds to anyone, please understand that these breeds usually require a lot more than many others. What if someone without any prior experience with dogs ends up with one of the more stubborn cases on their hands? Or just doesn't have the mentality needed to train one to be that angelic cutiepie?
Some individuals are indeed "softer" and easier to handle, but there's always the risk you end up getting way more trouble than you wanted.

 

[Teal]

Yes! That's how a really dominant dog behaves. And I really don't know how it came to be that people associate a dog wagging its tail with being happy and friendly. A dog wagging its tail is excited... and that can be for all kinds of reasons.

So many people that are bitten by dogs describe them as having a wagging tail and took that for a sign of friendliness... I cannot figure out how that came to be either. In the same vein, people associate barking/vocalization with aggression and unfriendliness. My terriers especially are VERY vocal, and it always scares people... I have to explain that they are doing their, "Human! I'm over here! COME LOVE ME!" attention-wanting bark... and that yes, there ARE different types of barks.

I have a Caucasian Shepherd aka Caucasian Ovcharka. Typhon is coming up to 16 months old now. Still a puppy but a large strong "dog". As he's still a pup I've not really noticed the typical behaviours adult strong willed dogs can exhibit yet.

I was extremely fortunate and grateful to share 9 years of my life previous with Samson, a Bullmastiff.

Samson would still occasionally try and see if he could get one over on me even at 9. He'd try and stand above me using the back of the settee. So he'd be over me. No little man. You sit yourself back down.

I'm not in any way an expert or knowledgeable. But in already owning a large strong willed breed I know what to expect with Typhon. Just in a bigger package. Typhon is an absolute dream. Confident, loving, independent and already guarding without being asked or trained.

I just want to point out that dogs "trying to stand over you" to be "dominant" is not a thing. Dogs know we aren't dogs... they do not employ dog-to-dog heirarchy behaviours on us. My dogs climb on the back of the couch and drape across my shoulders, they jump on my back if I am sitting and put their legs around my neck with their head resting on either the top of my head or on my shoulders, etc. I wrestle with my dogs, play tug and let them win, etc etc. None of these behaviours specifically are worrisome.

 

[boina]

I just want to point out that dogs "trying to stand over you" to be "dominant" is not a thing. Dogs know we aren't dogs... they do not employ dog-to-dog heirarchy behaviours on us.

When you think how we started out in this thread it is really astonishing how many things we actually agree on . Yes, I strongly agree with this.

 

[basin79]

So many people that are bitten by dogs describe them as having a wagging tail and took that for a sign of friendliness... I cannot figure out how that came to be either. In the same vein, people associate barking/vocalization with aggression and unfriendliness. My terriers especially are VERY vocal, and it always scares people... I have to explain that they are doing their, "Human! I'm over here! COME LOVE ME!" attention-wanting bark... and that yes, there ARE different types of barks.



I just want to point out that dogs "trying to stand over you" to be "dominant" is not a thing. Dogs know we aren't dogs... they do not employ dog-to-dog heirarchy behaviours on us. My dogs climb on the back of the couch and drape across my shoulders, they jump on my back if I am sitting and put their legs around my neck with their head resting on either the top of my head or on my shoulders, etc. I wrestle with my dogs, play tug and let them win, etc etc. None of these behaviours specifically are worrisome.

I disagree. Not on yours merely draping over your shoulders though. I'm typing about a dog getting higher than you and looking down on you like they do when dominating other dogs. And I can tell you large head strong breeds will do that.

 

[Teal]

When you think how we started out in this thread it is really astonishing how many things we actually agree on . Yes, I strongly agree with this.

Haha right!

I disagree. Not on yours merely draping over your shoulders though. I'm typing about a dog getting higher than you and looking down on you like they do when dominating other dogs. And I can tell you large head strong breeds will do that.

You're simply incorrect. I know what you're referring to, and it just isn't their intention to be "dominating" over a human like they would another dog. My specialty is working with "large, head strong breeds"... Malinois, bull and terriers, LGDs, etc. As I said... they know we aren't dogs and they do not employ those methods on us.

 

[basin79]

Haha right!



You're simply incorrect. I know what you're referring to, and it just isn't their intention to be "dominating" over a human like they would another dog. My specialty is working with "large, head strong breeds"... Malinois, bull and terriers, LGDs, etc. As I said... they know we aren't dogs and they do not employ those methods on us.

No, I'm not. Whilst you may know "dogs" you didn't know Samson my Bullmastiff. I know exactly what he tried to do. You could see the intention. It wasn't a case of he just happened to stand over me. He'd purposefully stand over me a certain way and look down.

Nothing will convince me otherwise it wasn't him trying to show dominance.

 

[Teal]

No, I'm not. Whilst you may know "dogs" you didn't know Samson my Bullmastiff. I know exactly what he tried to do. You could see the intention. It wasn't a case of he just happened to stand over me. He'd purposefully stand over me a certain way and look down.

Nothing will convince me otherwise it wasn't him trying to show dominance.

Well, it is unfortunate that you are choosing to remain ignorant to your dog's behaviour... but that is commonplace in pet dog owners to completely misinterpret a dog's intentions. Hence why there are so many "he snapped out of nowhere!" attacks that were actually easily foretold and came with plenty of warning, or owners who call behaviourists like me with tales of a "dominant" dog who really wasn't dominant at all.

Also, I showed and trained Bullmastiffs for seven years, when I was aged 12-19 years old... they are a lovely breed!

 

[basin79]

Well, it is unfortunate that you are choosing to remain ignorant to your dog's behaviour... but that is commonplace in pet dog owners to completely misinterpret a dog's intentions. Hence why there are so many "he snapped out of nowhere!" attacks that were actually easily foretold and came with plenty of warning, or owners who call behaviourists like me with tales of a "dominant" dog who really wasn't dominant at all.

Also, I showed and trained Bullmastiffs for seven years, when I was aged 12-19 years old... they are a lovely breed!

I know Bullmastiff's are a lovely breed. Samson was absolutely brilliant. We had an absolutely fantastic 9 years together and I miss him everyday.

Please don't call me ignorant regarding knowing MY own dogs. Samson NEVER snapped out of no where. I knew him and he knew me.

It's the same with Typhon now. We're having a fantastic time which will hopefully go on for many many more years.

 

[Teal]

I know Bullmastiff's are a lovely breed. Samson was absolutely brilliant. We had an absolutely fantastic 9 years together and I miss him everyday.

Please don't call me ignorant regarding knowing MY own dogs. Samson NEVER snapped out of no where. I knew him and he knew me.

It's the same with Typhon now. We're having a fantastic time which will hopefully go on for many many more years.

I meant no offense... just offering up what I have seen in the almost 20 years I have been working with dogs and their people.

Typhon is a very handsome boy! I have been following your thread of him. I haven't been hands on with too many Ovcharka, but a good friend of mine breeds/works CAS and I work Gamprs. LGDs are fascinating!