Visit From The Usda!!

[Rizzolo]

I'm wondering where I "assumed" anything.

my post wasn't targeted to you directly Wade, but as a general caveat to all who are reading here. even attorneys and judges often have difficulty intrepreting laws and regulations. it is usually a mistake to say "they can't do that!" beware of giving up your rights. you might miss them when they are gone!

i think it is problematic when obscure laws/regulations are enforced inconsistently or capriciously. However, imagine what it would be like if all of the laws and regulations on the books were rigidly and consistently enforced - a nightmare.

is it true that only one species of roach (portentosa) is legal to possess?

 

[Wade]

my post wasn't targeted to you directly Wade, but as a general caveat to all who are reading here. even attorneys and judges often have difficulty intrepreting laws and regulations. it is usually a mistake to say "they can't do that!" beware of giving up your rights. you might miss them when they are gone!

i think it is problematic when obscure laws/regulations are enforced inconsistently or capriciously. However, imagine what it would be like if all of the laws and regulations on the books were rigidly and consistently enforced - a nightmare.

is it true that only one species of roach (portentosa) is legal to possess?

My apologies, I misunderstood you!

You are quite correct. While it's true that they can't come in without a warrant, they might show up WITH one the next day!

I do kind of suspect that they are not axious to press charges and go to trial over a private individual owning bugs, because such an action would open public debate on the need for many of the regs. I would assume a defense attorney would call for some type of proof from the USDA that giant walkingsticks are pests. However, that's just a guess on my part, and is not meant to give anyone a false sense of security. I don't culture exotic walkingsticks for these exact reasons. If I did and they showed up and I turned them away because they lacked a warrant, I still wouldn't sleep well that night!

As written, the regs require a permit for all exotic cockroaches. G. portentosa was just added as an exception recently, like last year!

Wade

 

[andy83]

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/lpa/pubs/fsheet_faq_notice/fs_phclassroom.pdf

This is a link to a .pdf that has a list on the bottom of the second page. It is from 2004. It states that no permit is required for praying mantids.

 

[Mr. Mordax]

Here's the permit page, and a PDF of the specific permit for moving regulated animals state-to-state. I didn't find anything on importing or being able to get a permit just to own them.

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/permits/ppq_epermits.shtml

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ppq/forms/ppqform526.pdf

 

[Wade]

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/lpa/pubs/fsheet_faq_notice/fs_phclassroom.pdf

This is a link to a .pdf that has a list on the bottom of the second page. It is from 2004. It states that no permit is required for praying mantids.

Yet they started siezing them. When they did it,they pointed to a regulation requiring a permit for the release of mantids as a biological control. The educational use as described in your link comes closer to the usage as practiced by hobbyists than does the agriculural one in my view, but not to the USDA apparently. That's a fine example of how confusing and contradictory USDA policy can be.


Also, the same document states that it only refers to movements within the US, not imports which always need a permit. When they started siezing mantids from wholesalers, I don't think the distinquished between those actually impoted and those produced domestically from stock that's already here. Basically if it was an exotic species, they treated it as an import. Hopefully, they'll define this in the future in a way that will at least allow captive culture of those mantids already here.

Wade

 

[Rizzolo]

i am curious whether the authorities have requested information from the operators of this site. are PMs really private? will Arachnoboards release the content of PMs, to regulators? Do they maintain backups that have the content of your old deleted messages? i have no doubt that Paypal will have to cough up you transactions if they are asked. It would not be hard to use PMs and payment information to paste together what animals you bought or sold. Paypal will have enough information about you to locate you. also, your email addresses are probably enough information for the authorities to locate you.

Maybe it would be wise to use alternative methods of communication (other than this site) if you wish your transactions to be private (the telephone was better in some ways)? Also, in Paypal, it is probably better to not put any memo regarding specific animals you are purchasing. You could send payments as "quasi-cash" rather than for purchase of goods. Finally, in the feedback section, it might be best to be non-specific about what was purchased.

 

[bliss]

augh.. i just read alllll of the posts in this thread, that's kinda scary... but wait - if the USDA is tryin' to ban/control import stuff like the millipedes, why does most the petshops near me still carry the african giants (A. gigas)?????
so, the USDA is concerned about the native species and for our local environments - great. good... but do they do anything else besides nag at people for having imported inverts?? do they like, you know, clean up the forests, grasslands, shrublands, ponds/rivers, etc. for the local sp.?? if they don't, then they need to start -- i think that our local sp. have more to worry about from humans than they do "exotic pests". because most ppl who own these "exotic pests" are very responsible and would keep them in appropriate containers.

 

[roach dude]

youve heard of the dwa right?

ummm no? please inform me?

 

[Mat]

youve heard of the dwa right?

ummm no? please inform me?

Just in case you really arn't joking (though as you live in 'Bristle' I assume you are ), and for the benefit of our US friends - here is a link to some info on the UK Dangerous Wild Animals (DWA) licencing, including schedule of animals requireing a licence. I like the fact that the 'Tasmanian Devil' is first on the list.

http://www.basildon.gov.uk/80256B7A003BE9EE/vWeb/wpEFEN6BNK7J

In the UK DWA licences are issued by local councils (County or Unitary Authorities). Costs to obtain a DWA licence vary tremendously depending on where you live, it all depends on how much the council decide to charge, but it can be several hundred poiunds in some cases - the application form that goes with the scedule above says £230 ( = ~$450).

If you dig about bit and look as the 'Pet Shop Licence' section you will see that inverts are specifically excluded from licence requirements here too - if you are only selling inverts you will not need a licence as they are not 'vertebrates'.

Matt

 

[Wade]

augh.. i just read alllll of the posts in this thread, that's kinda scary... but wait - if the USDA is tryin' to ban/control import stuff like the millipedes, why does most the petshops near me still carry the african giants (A. gigas)?????

That's a good question. My only guess that the USDA are stopping them when they intercept shipments coming in but doing little about the ones already here. I don't know how PetCo opperates, but it's possible they maintain a huge stock somewhere where they are distributed to stores.

so, the USDA is concerned about the native species and for our local environments - great. good... but do they do anything else besides nag at people for having imported inverts?? do they like, you know, clean up the forests, grasslands, shrublands, ponds/rivers, etc. for the local sp.?? if they don't, then they need to start -- i think that our local sp. have more to worry about from humans than they do "exotic pests". because most ppl who own these "exotic pests" are very responsible and would keep them in appropriate containers.

The USDA is mainly concerned with agriculture, but they have enviromental concerns as well. They are a vast government agency, with jurisdiction over many things. The forestry service, for example, is part of the USDA. They also inspect food processing plants, meat and produce imports, etc. They certify foods as organic. They regulate what fertilizers and pesticides can be used, and what feeds and medications can be used on farm animals. The part of the USDA that concerns us is the APHIS division, which is reponsible for preventing diseases and pests from harming agricultural crops. Regulating the exotic pet bugs is a tiny sliver of what this agency is resposible for.

Although I disagree with many of their policies regarding keeping arthropods, the USDA does have an important job(s) to do. Instead of treating private hobbyists like the enemy, if they developed a resonable list of low-risk animals they'd de-regulate, the hobby, in return, coluld help police itself. As it is, however, with harmless animals classified the same as real pests, they force people underground who's only crime is that they happen to like live bugs.

Wade

 

[Binky/Carol]

In California, its illegal to own gerbils. AND to buy ferrets. You can own a ferret, But it has to be spayed or nuetered. People buy them in Nevada and just drive home. You can buy ferret cages, food.. all the stuff for them. BUT cannot buy one in the state.
Odd.. strange.. and well its the government .. whadda expect

 

[bliss]

That's a good question. My only guess that the USDA are stopping them when they intercept shipments coming in but doing little about the ones already here.

so does that mean i should start snatching up all of the ones i see in pet shops around here??? i can get SEVERAL more if i wanted... (< hmm... maybe i shouldn't have said this, lol, i feel as though im being watched.)
--- oh yeah, what if you have some A. gigas or any other type of milli in a communal tank, and they bred and had little milli's?? would the babies be "illegal pests" too???

daniel aka Blis

 

[Wade]

so does that mean i should start snatching up all of the ones i see in pet shops around here??? i can get SEVERAL more if i wanted... (< hmm... maybe i shouldn't have said this, lol, i feel as though im being watched.)
--- oh yeah, what if you have some A. gigas or any other type of milli in a communal tank, and they bred and had little milli's?? would the babies be "illegal pests" too???

daniel aka Blis

Giant millipedes have been staples of the pet trade for so long I can't imagine the USDA has any plans to come after indiviudals with them. I doubt they have the manpower!

The USDA has said they are mainly concerned that some type of crop pest mite might hitchhike in on the millipedes ore the soil they're packed with. In theory, this would indicate that captive bred specimens should be safe. However, there has been no indication from the USDA on how they intend to deal with domestic production of giant millipedes.

If set up correctly and you have males and females, African giant millipedes breed readily.

Wade

 

[Wade]

i am curious whether the authorities have requested information from the operators of this site. are PMs really private? will Arachnoboards release the content of PMs, to regulators? Do they maintain backups that have the content of your old deleted messages? i have no doubt that Paypal will have to cough up you transactions if they are asked. It would not be hard to use PMs and payment information to paste together what animals you bought or sold. Paypal will have enough information about you to locate you. also, your email addresses are probably enough information for the authorities to locate you.

Maybe it would be wise to use alternative methods of communication (other than this site) if you wish your transactions to be private (the telephone was better in some ways)? Also, in Paypal, it is probably better to not put any memo regarding specific animals you are purchasing. You could send payments as "quasi-cash" rather than for purchase of goods. Finally, in the feedback section, it might be best to be non-specific about what was purchased.

There is already an underground trade in phasmids. The USDA is no doubt aware of this site, but the busts may have nothing to do with it. Some wholesalers were listing them openly on their lists, and the USDA busted them and the went around confiscating them from whoever they sold them to.

The problem with going underground is then you lose the ability to discuss these things in public, because you're so worried someone is looking over your shoulder. It's hard to campaign for change when you're scared to stick you neck out.

Wade

 

[Stylopidae]

I have been told by Debby that PMs are fully private. I believe that somebody would have to have a warrant to search your PM box.

 

[Ant Worker]

USDA comes = ask for search warrant + ID. While they are out, hide your illegals and when they return you have won the battle. I hope the USDA replies soon.

 

[Code Monkey]

USDA comes = ask for search warrant + ID. While they are out, hide your illegals and when they return you have won the battle.

Except that they probably already have the search warrant, and if they don't, you loading a bunch of towel covered "boxes" into your car right after denying them entry into your home is more than enough probable cause to take a peek. Unless by "hide" you meant actually on the premises, which is a bad idea because short of stuffing them into your rectum, they will find anything you thought you hid and, worse, if they actually think you've hidden things, they'll trash your place that much worse.

If the USDA actually shows up on your doorstep with a warrant, your best bet is to quietly let them take your questionable bugs to get them out of your hair as quickly as possible. Being antagonistic beyond what your civil rights provide is asking to have your home torn up, a whole lot more bugs seized than they would have otherwise, all for no extra benefit to you or your bugs.

 

[Ant Worker]

NVM then, only keep native species unless you have a permit..

 

[Drachenjager]

Yeah ok. You're right, they really might think I will release my "mutant killer bees" and "colony of killer japanese beetles" into the wild. So if you're reading this USDA, I am NOT going to release any of them. They will stay in captivity right next to my nuclear flying snails and breeding pair of trouser snakes.

eeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

 

[Drachenjager]

You're supposed to have permits from the USDA to transport native insects between states, even if they're native to both states. This is mostly because some states have regulations against out-of-state insects, although most don't. The main thing to worry about concerning natives is weather or not there are any state or local regs.

Wade

just insects Wade?