Tiger Beetles and Velvet Ant

[Josh999]

Hello all,

I have a female velvet ant(Dasymutilla occidentalis) and a few punctured tiger beetles(Cicindelidia punctulata) that I keep separate but in identical conditions. I know they coexist in the same habitats in the wild, but how do you all think they would fare were I to put them in the same enclosure? Neither are particularly aggressive in my experience and I don't see that they could do much physical harm to each other, but my primary concern would be the stress of increased encounters with each other compared to what would occur naturally.

 

[chanda]

Tiger beetles are predators. There is a very good chance that they might, at some point, decide that the velvet ant looked pretty tasty...

 

[Josh999]

Tiger beetles are predators. There is a very good chance that they might, at some point, decide that the velvet ant looked pretty tasty...

I don't know... of the tiger beetles I've kept, this species has demonstrated itself to be the most timid in hunting large prey. I've yet to get them to catch anything much more than half their size. Granted, this is still pretty bold, but I've found most to be extremely bold. I dont have any real intention of keeping them together, as I simply have no reason, but I'm just trying to explore the idea. Thank you for the input!

 

[Andee]

I think if you kept them together I would keep them in a much larger enclosure than most people think necessary and provide plenty of places to safely establish territory and hide. I don't recommend it anyway since tiger beetles are relatively unpredictable from the research I've done (I want to keep them one day when I have a good enclosure set up and I feel it is proper), and though they may seem calm now, they may get more aggressive when being housed with something like a velvet ant or god knows what could throw them off. But if you really want to try, just keep the tigers well fed, as well as your velvet ant (I am not sure what they eat, would be interested to know for sure) so that they don't wander too far to check for food and if they do cross paths they don't take the chance etc.

 

[Josh999]

I think if you kept them together I would keep them in a much larger enclosure than most people think necessary and provide plenty of places to safely establish territory and hide. I don't recommend it anyway since tiger beetles are relatively unpredictable from the research I've done (I want to keep them one day when I have a good enclosure set up and I feel it is proper), and though they may seem calm now, they may get more aggressive when being housed with something like a velvet ant or god knows what could throw them off. But if you really want to try, just keep the tigers well fed, as well as your velvet ant (I am not sure what they eat, would be interested to know for sure) so that they don't wander too far to check for food and if they do cross paths they don't take the chance etc.

I've kept several species of tiger beetle. I agree that they can certainly be unpredictable. As for you keeping them yourself, my advice would be to research your species and re-create its natural environment as best you can(particularly soil), not that you asked for my advice. Velvet ants like it rather dry. I make a clay/sand mix substrate and offer a bottle cap of water and a bottle cap of honeywater. I've yet to attempt breeding them, though.

 

[chanda]

as well as your velvet ant (I am not sure what they eat, would be interested to know for sure) so that they don't wander too far to check for food and if they do cross paths they don't take the chance etc.

Velvet ants drink fruit juice and nectar in the wild. In captivity they do quite well with sliced grapes or oranges. Regardless of how near or far the food is, they are going to wander - they have the natural drive to reproduce, so are going to be looking for the nests of ground-nesting bees in which to lay their eggs.

 

[Salmonsaladsandwich]

Velvet ants have very tough exoskeletons, adapted to withstand the attacks of insects who's nests they're invading. I highly doubt that rather small and weak C. punctulata could do much damage to a large velvet ant species like this. Even if they attacked it at first they would probably soon learn to ignore it.

Darkling beetles would also be good tankmates. Cicindela apparently lack the ability to prey upon beetles much larger than themselves.

 

[Josh999]

Velvet ants drink fruit juice and nectar in the wild. In captivity they do quite well with sliced grapes or oranges. Regardless of how near or far the food is, they are going to wander - they have the natural drive to reproduce, so are going to be looking for the nests of ground-nesting bees in which to lay their eggs.

I've never tried oranges. I have given other fruits but I've always considered it a kind of "treat".

 

[Josh999]

Velvet ants have very tough exoskeletons, adapted to withstand the attacks of insects who's nests they're invading. I highly doubt that rather small and weak C. punctulata could do much damage to a large velvet ant species like this. Even if they attacked it at first they would probably soon learn to ignore it.

Darkling beetles would also be good tankmates. Cicindela apparently lack the ability to prey upon beetles much larger than themselves.

That's exactly what I was thinking. And likewise, the beetles are surely too tough for the velvet ant's stinger to penetrate.

Yes, I kept metallic tiger beetles(Tetracha carolina) and darkling beetles together. Even though the darkling beetles were smaller, the tigers rarely ate them. They did, however, eat the larvae(mealworms) quite frequently.

 

[Andee]

I've kept several species of tiger beetle. I agree that they can certainly be unpredictable. As for you keeping them yourself, my advice would be to research your species and re-create its natural environment as best you can(particularly soil), not that you asked for my advice. Velvet ants like it rather dry. I make a clay/sand mix substrate and offer a bottle cap of water and a bottle cap of honeywater. I've yet to attempt breeding them, though.

It's why I have been slow to buy and set up an enclosure with tiger beetles. I want to do the correct research with preferred humidity, soil types etc. Preferably get the humidity changes correctly to seasonal changes. From what I understand these guys are affected a lot! by their environment.

 

[Josh999]

It's why I have been slow to buy and set up an enclosure with tiger beetles. I want to do the correct research with preferred humidity, soil types etc. Preferably get the humidity changes correctly to seasonal changes. From what I understand these guys are affected a lot! by their environment.

They certainly are. I only keep species native to my area and I keep them outdoors during the warm months and in a cold incubator in the winter.

 

[Andee]

There is like two native to my area from what I know, and one is actually a vulnerable species, close to endangered, because of the fragmentation of their "habitat" because they are so picky with their soil and where they will stay and lay eggs. Poor little ones... I was thinking if I could find them and figure out how to breed them in captivity, I would release small amounts at a time (around 5-10) and in places they may do well around me. They aren't a huge danger to crops or other species because most of what they eat is stable.

But I feel weird about doing that still, because there are so many species of insects that are just something you do not release even in small amounts in one area because of the pest issues with them

 

[Josh999]

There is like two native to my area from what I know, and one is actually a vulnerable species, close to endangered, because of the fragmentation of their "habitat" because they are so picky with their soil and where they will stay and lay eggs. Poor little ones... I was thinking if I could find them and figure out how to breed them in captivity, I would release small amounts at a time (around 5-10) and in places they may do well around me. They aren't a huge danger to crops or other species because most of what they eat is stable.

But I feel weird about doing that still, because there are so many species of insects that are just something you do not release even in small amounts in one area because of the pest issues with them

I wouldn't be concerned with tiger beetles becoming a pest... As long as they don't devour a population of another species in peril, I don't see any danger there. However, I would recommend keeping a more common species first, just until you're comfortable enough to know that you won't kill a rare species with a silly "beginner's mistake." As I said, I have a fair deal of experience with them under my belt so feel free to come to me with any questions or uncertainties! Best of luck! (Ps. Do you mind if I ask what species is the subject here?)

 

[Andee]

Yeah I was thinking of starting off easy first XD We have a couple species here that just over run, as far as the species it's the Ohlone Tiger Beetle. I don't live directly in Santa Cruz but I am only an hour or so away from it, so if I could breed and raise them I would have no issue with bringing back healthy specimens on a roach trip. What I worry most is that their habitat is under attack. I think the biggest concern for them and what is hardest for them to over come is the fragmentation but yeah. I haven't looked into hugely yet. Want to be more ready before even researching into it.

 

[Josh999]

Yeah I was thinking of starting off easy first XD We have a couple species here that just over run, as far as the species it's the Ohlone Tiger Beetle. I don't live directly in Santa Cruz but I am only an hour or so away from it, so if I could breed and raise them I would have no issue with bringing back healthy specimens on a roach trip. What I worry most is that their habitat is under attack. I think the biggest concern for them and what is hardest for them to over come is the fragmentation but yeah. I haven't looked into hugely yet. Want to be more ready before even researching into it.

The Ohlone is a beautiful species! I'm in Eastern Missouri so I've not even thought about attempting them, and I don't know a whole lot about their concerns. But repopulation is a great way to fight fragmentation, as long as the habitat isn't destroyed in the destination area. I wish you the best of luck!

 

[Andee]

I will try once I feel comfortable with tiger beetles. The whole thing is, it's just hard for them to get the places they need in Santa Cruz, it's being built up so much, but there are still some places with several acres in one place with what they need, they just can't get to it. Poor babies.

 

[Hisserdude]

Yeah I was thinking of starting off easy first XD We have a couple species here that just over run, as far as the species it's the Ohlone Tiger Beetle. I don't live directly in Santa Cruz but I am only an hour or so away from it, so if I could breed and raise them I would have no issue with bringing back healthy specimens on a roach trip. What I worry most is that their habitat is under attack. I think the biggest concern for them and what is hardest for them to over come is the fragmentation but yeah. I haven't looked into hugely yet. Want to be more ready before even researching into it.

I say go for it! Honestly, there's a high chance that species may eventually go extinct, there are several invertebrate species like them that are near endangered status because of severe habit fragmentation, I think having some in culture is the best way to be sure to preserve the species in question.

Take Simandoa conserfarium for example. If those scientists hadn't decided to collect some and breed them, they may have been wiped off the face of this planet! Now they exist only in captivity.

 

[Andee]

I have to find a good place to collect them and then make a day trip down there to do so when I have a good set up. They are a really beneficial species for keeping pest insects under control.

 

[Salmonsaladsandwich]

Most if not all parts of the US have at least five or six tiger beetle species. Have you tried searching a sandy lakeshores or riverbanks? No matter where you are in the US you're sure to eventually run into bronzed tiger beetles or some variant of the oblique- lined tiger beetle.

 

[Andee]

I have some similar habitats near me around my local lake so I was figuring I'd search around there.