Theraphosa stirmi feeding

[Justin H]

Do you have some citations on the scientific consensus you speak of? I've been taught the opposite during my entomology degree is why I ask, but I'm happy to learn from well polished published work.

edit: I should more correctly say that from our current understanding its generally accepted (in my experience dealing with Entomologists of a variety of specifications) that they don't feel pain, at least not in the way we do, but there is admittedly a lot we still don't know.

When did you study for your entomology degree? I was taught this stuff in a cell biology and genetics class last year. I can't find the study that kicked it off (it was about lobsters by a guy named Elwood), but since 2008 there are a bunch of studies using avoidance learning as a criteria for pain. After similar studies had been replicated, a few European countries made it illegal to boil crustaceans alive and began adopting policies to protect invertebrates.

There's another set of studies done in the insect world regarding venom composition... there's specifically one study theorizing that since the hormones present in Tarantula Hawk stings are the same hormones responsible for pain in humans, and that the paralysis effect they have on their prey is actually just intense suffering. If I find this one I'll link it.

The problem with pain studies is that we're still not really certain how to quantitatively measure pain. Pain studies in the 90s and even in the early 2000s were pretty bad science. A lot of them revolved around torturing primates and recording which parts of their MRIs lit up.

Here's one of the first studies to make the chemical association with pain in invertebrates (1998):
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0167569998012687

Here's a study regarding invertebrate response to pain:
https://www.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/jn.00600.2016

Here's a study about shore crabs and avoidance learning as a criteria for pain:
http://jeb.biologists.org/content/216/3/353

Here's a study arguing that even in the absence of nociceptors an organism still likely feels pain:
https://academic.oup.com/ilarjournal/article/52/2/175/659957

Here's another study regarding avoidance learning, this time with fruit flies:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000334720800273X

That last article even argues that they process pain:

“there is evidence that nociceptive information reaches higher learning centres in the insect brain[...] how nociceptive information is processed within the insect central nervous system remains almost entirely unknown.”

 

[Venom1080]

So it's nothing to do with nature. Not sure why another animals pain doesn't bother you. Granted it can't ever be removed if you eat meat or have pets that eat meat but you should at least make sure an animal dies in the most humane way possible. Why not kill the frog first with a tap to the head? The tarantula still gets the frog. Win/win.

It doesn't bother me partly because it's over so fast, partly because it's feeding the animals I do like and care about.

A 7.5" Theraphosa going for prekilled? I don't know about that. This was a guaranteed feeding. Why should I kill an animal for potentially no reason?

 

[basin79]

It doesn't bother me partly because it's over so fast, partly because it's feeding the animals I do like and care about.

A 7.5" Theraphosa going for prekilled? I don't know about that. This was a guaranteed feeding. Why should I kill an animal for potentially no reason?

Why feed a live vertebrate prey that's not needed in the first place? That argument is just as strong if not stronger.

Why aren't you bothered about the pain of prey? Ever stubbed your toe?

 

[Sarkhan42]

When did you study for your entomology degree? I was taught this stuff in a cell biology and genetics class last year. I can't find the study that kicked it off (it was about lobsters by a guy named Elwood), but since 2008 there are a bunch of studies using avoidance learning as a criteria for pain. After similar studies had been replicated, a few European countries made it illegal to boil crustaceans alive and began adopting policies to protect invertebrates.

There's another set of studies done in the insect world regarding venom composition... there's specifically one study theorizing that since the hormones present in Tarantula Hawk stings are the same hormones responsible for pain in humans, and that the paralysis effect they have on their prey is actually just intense suffering. If I find this one I'll link it.

The problem with pain studies is that we're still not really certain how to quantitatively measure pain. Pain studies in the 90s and even in the early 2000s were pretty bad science. A lot of them revolved around torturing primates and recording which parts of their MRIs lit up.

Here's one of the first studies to make the chemical association with pain in invertebrates (1998):
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0167569998012687

Here's a study regarding invertebrate response to pain:
https://www.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/jn.00600.2016

Here's a study about shore crabs and avoidance learning as a criteria for pain:
http://jeb.biologists.org/content/216/3/353

Here's a study arguing that even in the absence of nociceptors an organism still likely feels pain:
https://academic.oup.com/ilarjournal/article/52/2/175/659957

Here's another study regarding avoidance learning, this time with fruit flies:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000334720800273X

That last article even argues that they process pain:

“there is evidence that nociceptive information reaches higher learning centres in the insect brain[...] how nociceptive information is processed within the insect central nervous system remains almost entirely unknown.”

I'm actually in my senior year right now, so it's just as recent. The argument I've heard against a lot of this research(which to my understanding until this point is quite controversial) is that nociception doesn't indicate pain. The argument is that the nociception displayed by insects is programmed, or the ability to learn from that kind of a stimulus is programmed, as opposed to the pain we can feel even without a physical stimulus that is accepted to be in part emotional, which is a far more complex thing. A lot of scientists are of the belief that consciousness is required to feel emotions, whether or not that's correct? I don't think we can really know at this time. I think it really comes down to how we define pain, which I believe is what causes this to be controversial. I personally tend to follow the school of thought that this nociception is different, but I can understand at least why it would be a point of contention, because really there is so much more for us to know.

 

[Dennis Nedry]

I'm just saying if anyone is worried about that stirmi getting any parasites from the frog remember that depending on where it was bought from for all we know that stirmi was also wild caught and already has parasites.

Not to mention I find it hard to believe there are many parasites that can be passed from a frog to a tarantula, parasites are usually pretty host specific

 

[Venom1080]

Why feed a live vertebrate prey that's not needed in the first place? That argument is just as strong if not stronger.

Why aren't you bothered about the pain of prey? Ever stubbed your toe?

Because the pain the feeder goes through doesn't bother me. It's fast, and it's nutrients go to something I care more about. If that makes me a psycho, so be it. I love animals. But I love these spiders of mine much more.

There is one valid reason for feeding vertebrate prey in Canada. Roaches are illegal. The only big prey items I have are super worms and hornworms (which are kinda expensive to feed often). I live in the middle of nowhere. Pesticides aren't an issue. (Don't even know if that's an issue to begin with, or a hobby myth)

So, either I feed a vertebrate prey item once in a while, or I waste handfuls of crickets and/or a bunch of superworms.

You keep some large specimens. Supers barely seem to make a dent sometimes.

 

[Nightstalker47]

I dont see it being an issue, quicker death then it would have gotten in the wild. I have seen small frogs eaten alive by larger ones, or snakes, thats worse then being killed pretty much instantly.

Either way, theres no point crying over spilled milk. The frog is dead and was not wasted, and thats all that matters.

 

[Venom1080]

I dont see it being an issue, quicker death then it would have gotten in the wild. I have seen small frogs eaten alive by larger ones, or snakes, thats worse then being killed pretty much instantly.

Either way, theres no point crying over spilled milk. The frog is dead and was not wasted, and thats all that matters.

Basin makes a fair point. And I love debating things both parties are knowledgeable about. This is fun, don't ruin it.

 

[basin79]

Because the pain the feeder goes through doesn't bother me. It's fast, and it's nutrients go to something I care more about. If that makes me a psycho, so be it. I love animals. But I love these spiders of mine much more.

There is one valid reason for feeding vertebrate prey in Canada. Roaches are illegal. The only big prey items I have are super worms and hornworms (which are kinda expensive to feed often). I live in the middle of nowhere. Pesticides aren't an issue. (Don't even know if that's an issue to begin with, or a hobby myth)

So, either I feed a vertebrate prey item once in a while, or I waste handfuls of crickets and/or a bunch of superworms.

You keep some large specimens. Supers barely seem to make a dent sometimes.

See the fact you're not bothered about the pain the feeder goes through is wrong. Dress it up however you like but you're admitting to animal cruelty.

 

[Nightstalker47]

Basin makes a fair point. And I love debating things both parties are knowledgeable about. This is fun, don't ruin it.

Alrighty then, Ill leave you to it.

There is one valid reason for feeding vertebrate prey in Canada. Roaches are illegal. The only big prey items I have are super worms and hornworms (which are kinda expensive to feed often). I live in the middle of nowhere.

So, either I feed a vertebrate prey item once in a while, or I waste handfuls of crickets and/or a bunch of superworms.

You keep some large specimens. Supers barely seem to make a dent sometimes.

Get yourself some fresh earthworms from the corner store, massive prey item for even the largest specimen. Theraphosa's love them, just make sure they haven't been sitting around for too long.

 

[Justin H]

I'm actually in my senior year right now, so it's just as recent. The argument I've heard against a lot of this research(which to my understanding until this point is quite controversial) is that nociception doesn't indicate pain. The argument is that the nociception displayed by insects is programmed, or the ability to learn from that kind of a stimulus is programmed, as opposed to the pain we can feel even without a physical stimulus that is accepted to be in part emotional, which is a far more complex thing. A lot of scientists are of the belief that consciousness is required to feel emotions, whether or not that's correct? I don't think we can really know at this time. I think it really comes down to how we define pain, which I believe is what causes this to be controversial. I personally tend to follow the school of thought that this nociception is different, but I can understand at least why it would be a point of contention, because really there is so much more for us to know.

I'm not surprised it's controversial..
It was taught very matter of factly, but I'm an environmental science student being taught in a very liberal area.

I would be more inclined to believe their nociception was "programmed" if they weren't able to learn. Yet again, there are plants that appear to learn and have memory...

You're right, it comes down to how you approach/view the topic. I guess I could have said there's a consensus among SOME scientists, haha.

 

[basin79]

I dont see it being an issue, quicker death then it would have gotten in the wild. I have seen small frogs eaten alive by larger ones, or snakes, thats worse then being killed pretty much instantly.

Either way, theres no point crying over spilled milk. The frog is dead and was not wasted, and thats all that matters.

If I killed you by say cutting you tongue and genitals off but then fed you too my dog and myself then fair enough?

 

[Nightstalker47]

If I killed you by say cutting you tongue and genitals off but then fed you too my dog and myself then fair enough?

Not even remotely comparable, the frog was not tortured in the least. Borderline insanity thinking that way, keep me out of such absurd comparisons.

If you want to be an SJW, look into factory farming, I know you like to eat steak...do you source your meat? Or do you pick and choose whats humane based on convenience.

 

[basin79]

Not even remotely comparable, the frog was not tortured in the least. Borderline insanity thinking that way, keep me out of such absurd comparisons.

If you want to be an SJW, look into factory farming, I know you like to eat steak...do you source your meat? Or do you pick and choose whats humane based on convenience.

You put a frog into an enclosure with a tarantula that kills by fangs and weak venom and it's not torture.

Jog on.

 

[MintyWood826]

I know that in nature and IRL pain happens, predators hunt and kill, and that is inevitable. But, I would like to not be the cause of pain and suffering. This is in my house, where I have control over what goes on. (For me it's my bedroom where I keep my Ts, could be a living room, spider room, and so on.) Not nature.



I do think inverts feel something, but I don't think it's pain as we vertebrates know it. JMO and I could be wrong.

 

[Venom1080]

See the fact you're not bothered about the pain the feeder goes through is wrong. Dress it up however you like but you're admitting to animal cruelty.

I'm bothered about pain animals go through. I don't like animal abuse. However, feeding vertebrates is not animal abuse. It is feeding a predator. It goes to something besides a sick satisfaction. It gives nutrients to the animal. Not pleasure to a human. Not pleasure to me.

Weak venom to humans is not weak venom to a frog my friend. Theraphosid venom can be very effective on small vertebrates. There's a vid on yt on a P murinus biting a mouse and the mouse escaping. (Totally stupid video btw, mouse was too big) The mouse died in a few seconds afterwards.

And my mistake, earthworms are great feeders for large terrestrials. Not so much for arboreals however. They're more picky about the slime I find.

Also, your example for nightstalker is pretty off base.. animals and humans are very different. A humans life is never worth an animals.

 

[basin79]

I'm bothered about pain animals go through. I don't like animal abuse. However, feeding vertebrates is not animal abuse. It is feeding a predator. It goes to something besides a sick satisfaction. It gives nutrients to the animal. Not pleasure to a human. Not pleasure to me.

Weak venom to humans is not weak venom to a frog my friend. Theraphosid venom can be very effective on small vertebrates. There's a vid on yt on a P murinus biting a mouse and the mouse escaping. (Totally stupid video btw, mouse was too big) The mouse died in a few seconds afterwards.

And my mistake, earthworms are great feeders for large terrestrials. Not so much for arboreals however. They're more picky about the slime I find.

Also, your example for nightstalker is pretty off base.. animals and humans are very different. A humans life is never worth an animals.

You're not bothered the pain animals go through?

 

[Venom1080]

You're not bothered the pain animals go through?

Whenever someone resorts to insults, the other person's won. Dismantle my points or take your own advice...

Thanks for ruining what was a good conversation. Grow up, bud.

 

[basin79]

Whenever someone resorts to insults, the other person's won. Dismantle my points or take your own advice...

Thanks for ruining what was a good conversation. Grow up, bud.

Disagree. Fine I swore but you're wrong.

 

[Venom1080]

Disagree. Fine I swore but you're wrong.

I also disagree.

It is a matter of opinion. If you are too bothered by live vertebrate feeding to do it, fine. I'm not. I'm not an animal abuser. I just believe it's not a big deal for the reasons I've stated throughout the thread.