Theraphosa sp. "Burgundy" Marketing Scheme or Natural Variation

[Jmugleston]

Is it just me or does anyone else have a sneaky feeling that the new T. sp. "Burgundy" are nothing more than T. blondi with a higher price tag?

I see it like this: T. blondi varies in color quite a bit. Anyone who has received a dirty brown import and then seen it molt into the black, dark brown, or dare I say burgundy can attest to their variation even within the same specimen. It wasn't until recently that this whole issue started and oddly enough......recently more have been successful with hatching T. blondi. T. blondi eggsacs have hatched and within the same eggsac some have had pink, white, and brown tarsi. So can anyone provide any evidence whatsoever that T. sp. "Burgundy" is different? Remember color doesn't count for much.

I am wanting to hear about some difference in urtricating hair types? stridulatory bristles? range? anything to show they are different except the different colors?

Without proof I'm seeing this as nothing more than a way to charge more for a sling by giving it a new name. Perhaps I should separate my T. blondi shelf.....those with brown tarsi I'll call T. blondi, the ones with pink tarsi I'll call T. sp. "Burgundy" and those with white tarsi will be called T. sp. "B.S."

Maybe I missed something. Please fill in the gaps to my understanding if you have evidence I have not come across. I'd love to know if I'm missing a Theraphosa sp. Or if I'm inadvertently crossing different species.....or even different Genera now according to some sources!

I'm sure there are many theraphosids we have not yet found. And possibly even some that we call a species that may represent species complexes. But I am afraid in some cases we prematurely attribute trade titles to add value when in fact we are not seeing anything more than the same spider with a new....more expensive name.

Here's what I'm hoping for with this post:
If you have bred T. blondi please chime in and comment on your slings and their tarsi color.

If you have one of these "new" T. blondi....errrr I mean T. sp. "Burgundy," is it at all different from your T. blondi (provided you have some of each and they are past the pink tarsi stages)?

Or if you're selling the "burgundy" goliaths, what is it that makes you think they are different? Color?

I'd like to get some definitive answers since every time this question is brought up, there seem to be a lot of dodgy pseudo-answers.

 

[Exo]

I have a friend who has both and as far as he (and I) can tell, there is no difference between the two other than color. His blondi is a 3 yr old captive bred female and she has a rather "reddish" color, almost the same as his "burgandy". I think that it's probably a big scam.

BTW. He's examined the molts uner a microscope to look for any different bristle patterns and as far as he can tell, there is no difference between the two.

 

[Teal]

I have one of those Theraphosa sp. "Burgundy"

From what my inexperienced eye can tell, it is looking like a T. apophysis. It is a male, so when he matures that will help a lot apparently?

I don't have a T. blondi, but I am happy to provide any information about my T that might help solve this!

 

[rasputin]

The photoset provided for the ad: http://www.flickr.com/photos/14734284@N02/4198104539/in/set-72157622908515437/

 

[Fingolfin]

Word on the street is they are a seperate species.

 

[Jmugleston]

I'd like to keep this an open discussion, so if you have evidence for either side please present your pictures, measurements, experience with these, etc without calling names. My purpose is to bring to light any information on these spiders. Not to cause an all to famous forum war between me and other keepers/breeders/etc. I'm not expecting a taxonomic ranking to be changed in this forum, only to see evidence if it exists to support the new title.

 

[skippy]

i have 2 slings that are labeled "theraphosa sp" due to their 4 pink feet but they definitely look more like blondi than apophysis. i'm holding final judgement until i see a few more molts.

 

[Ts are #1]

Heres a whole article on them http://www.tarantulas.com/guyana_goliath.html

 

[skippy]

article not found

 

[jayefbe]

article not found

just get rid of the smiley face at the end of the link.

 

[Jmugleston]

Heres a whole article on them http://www.tarantulas.com/guyana_goliath.html.:D

A few issues with the "information" on this thread:

"Our breeding stock originates from an area in northern Guyana (Theraphosa blondi is known from parts of Guyana, but is also found in southeastern Venezuela, northeastern Brazil, Suriname and French Guiana). This population is likely a third (undescribed) species that is similar to, yet different than, T. blondi."

I have some T. sp. from southern Guyana with pink tarsi.....should I call these "burgundy" if they don't key out as T. apophysis? I can be a bit more certain that this is from southern Guyana since the same import order contained numerous species known from Brazil.
Otherwise, the Brazilian species have a much wider range than previously thought (very possible), but on the same token, possibly T. blondi does as well. We may even be seeing regional variation within T. blondi.....unless there is a morphological or molecular difference between the two, why would they be considered different species?

"it has pink "feet" [tarsi] as a spiderling and juvenile, which is not the case in T. blondi. "

My T. blondi slings had pink tarsi....as did the slings seen by the few other breeders that were lucky enough to get slings from this species. Within the same eggsac, there was variation in the tarsi color. All my adults came from the same import order and they look strangely like T. blondi..........Perhaps the limited numbers of success with this species, and the rush to call all things with pink tarsi T. apophysis has hidden this simple variation in tarsi color with T. blondi.

I recently purchased a collection from a local couple and the error in identification with Theraphosa sp. was seen there. She had a very nice T. apophysis female. The next T. apophysis she showed me was definitely T. blondi...thickened distal portions of the femur and all the other characters that differentiate the two.

That web page provides very little real information. According to that page, the differences are:

Color-Not valid....humans are many different colors......yet we're all the same species.

Temperament....Not a valid character....that will most likely vary by individual

Ease of reproduction.....That is a relative statement that depends on the individuals, husbandry, keeper's experience, etc.

Past that, it seems all the other traits are the same as T. blondi....So once again....what is the difference between the two except price?

Maybe this could help. Does anyone have evidence of a T. blondi eggsac with slings having only brown tarsi? If so, pictures and information on the slings and the adults would be great.

 

[Zoltan]

The link is good, but the dot and the after it weren't separated from it, so the browser thinks the link includes . in the end. Click here for the page.

Word on the street is they are a seperate species.

I think the OP knows that, but the point of him creating this thread was to ask why are they a separate species, what makes them a different species from Theraphosa blondi.

From what my inexperienced eye can tell, it is looking like a T. apophysis. It is a male, so when he matures that will help a lot apparently?

It can be safely said that T. sp. "Burgundy Goliath" is not T. apophysis, because the males of the former don't have tibial apophyses on the first legs, as opposed to T. apophysis males, which do.

I didn't find/hear any solid (=taxonomically sound) information on why is this "Burgundy Goliath" isn't T. blondi, but if I recall correctly, Ray Gabriel and Richard Gallon in the UK are looking into the matter. Sorry that I can't be of much help.

 

[Fran]

I agree 100% with Jmugleston.

I have Theraphosa Blondi with light, pink and dark tarsi. The ones who are getting some size clearly respond to the T.Blondi characteristics.

If you get a hold of an adult female plain WC T Blondi, and Instead of $100 you get $250 by changing its name...

 

[Endagr8]

The photoset provided for the ad: http://www.flickr.com/photos/14734284@N02/4198104539/in/set-72157622908515437/

ROFL!

If that's a first instar, then I'd definitely say that these are a different species.

 

[Fran]

If thats a 1st instar I will quit the hobby.

 

[GailC]

When I first got my Burgundy sling, I contacted rick west to see what he had to say and he told me without a adult decesed specimen, he really had no way to tell if its a new species or not.
Maybe one of you dealers who gets a adult burgundy would be willing to donate one to the cause so we can get this settles once and for all.
I personally don't care if mine is actually a blondi or burgundy, I was just happy to get my baby monster and I though the price was fair.

 

[matthias]

Heres a whole article on them http://www.tarantulas.com/guyana_goliath.html.:D

does it say anything that they sent specimens in April 2009 for identification and nothing more has been said.

 

[spiderfield]

I purchased slings of both species last year and both had the pink tarsi. Currently, they both look the same as well. For now i'm keeping their tanks labeled as separate species.

 

[G. pulchra]

So far nobody has any facts that point to an actual difference? I have seen the "Burgandy" at a local show, and personally I was unable to differentiate between that and a "normal".

 

[Philth]

I've posted this somewhere else before but I'll repeat it for the sake of this thread. I have 2 adult female "blondi" That have always looked a little different from each other.

Female # 1 , was a WC Adult import in 2006. This spider to me resembles The spider coming from Guyana often labeled as "sp. Burgundy". It seems that most of the T. blondi that we see latley look like this. It has a clean look , notice there is no long hair on the patella. This female is fresh molted in this pic.

( more sp. " burgundy" click & click.)

Female # 2 , was a WC adult import from 2002. This spider has a much "fuzzier" look, with long hairs on the patella. This spider was also fresh molted in this pic.

(more "fuzzy" blondi click and click .)

Here is what the offspring from female 2 looked like....

The hair on the patella has ben consistant since I got them, evan before and after a molt.

What does this mean...well, nothing actually haha. With out knowledge of the spiders background, not knowing what color there feet were, it dosent really matter. I'm simply showing that there are differances in adult T. blondi (other than color) that have ben imported over the years. Are they different sp. or just geographical variants of the same sp. ? I dont know. A larger sample with accurate collection data would be needed see if it ment anything. Either way I would label them different. They look like different spiders to me, anybody disagree ?

In a discussion with Martin (tarcan) , he mentioned that all the T. blondi he photographed in French Guiana had the long hair on the patella. Again , Im not claiming I know what is what, just find it interesting, as I love the big brown spiders

As for T. apophysis, I often hear people say the females are impossable to tell apart from T. blondi (or what ever they are). I must omit, once you've seen a T. apophysis in person, the differances are obvious.

Hope you all enjoyed my long post that solved nothing haha.
Peace-TP