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Tarantula molt stuck at cephalothorax (thorax, not abdomen)

Discussion in 'Tarantula Chat' started by Yvan Daniel, Mar 19, 2017.

  1. Yvan Daniel

    Yvan Daniel Arachnopeon

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    Tarantula molt stuck at cephalothorax (thorax, not abdomen)

    Old and new cephalothorax (Thus the living tarantula) are kind of "welded" or "fused" together.

    I think what happened is that the tarantula was in a too tight space when molting. It got itself into an emptied piece of wood.

    All the legs are out so also the abdomen. But somehow maybe the tarantula has not been able to push the whole exoskeleton away enough from its body and somehow the exoskeleton felt back on the (exhausted?) tarantula (the tarantula is upside down) and the two got "welded". I can see on its web where it was previous to moving away some kind of black liquid residue. Maybe there was some kind of injury. At this time the tarantula seem to have enough energy because it dragged the whole exoskeleton a few inches to change location. However, for 78 hours now that the molting is complete and it has been struggling to get rid of the remainder and nothing is improving since. Please, help!

    It seems a young tarantula (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilean_rose_tarantula) because it is 2.5 inches in diameter. It was acquired by my daughter 2 weeks ago.

    I do not know a great deal about tarantula but started reading a professional book about them. I searched a lot over the internet and could not find any SPECIFIC answer to this problem.

    The tarantula has been out of its molt for 3 days and has been struggling since then to get rid of the complete exoskeleton.

    ALL LEGS ARE OUT but the WHOLE old exoskeleton with 8 old legs is stuck by the thorax as said, NOT by the "abdomen", the "abdomen" (i.e. the rear part of the tarantula) is completely free and out of the old exoskeleton.

    It is like you would have two tarantula on top of one another.

    I know most will ask for a picture but the description is clear enough.

    When gently turning the tarantula on its side it always comes back on its back and absolutely does not seems able to solve the situation.

    I did not disturbed it, simply put it on a paper towel, removed it from the habitat in order to fully re-humidified the habitat and then put it back there on the towel so that it is protected from any debris under.

    In the process I did moist the "edges" around the "joint" of the two thorax taking care not to interfere with the book lungs (located below the "abdomen").

    Any advice relating directly to this situation would be greatly appreciated, especially from those that have encountered the SAME problematic.

    Kind regards,

    p.s. i am french. sorry if my writing is not perfect.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
  2. Ghost56

    Ghost56 Arachnobaron Active Member

    Get us some pics if you can. I'm not really understanding what's going on here tbh. And the description is not really clear enough at all IMO. What you're describing, as far as I'm understanding, would be impossible. Really need a pic. Do you maybe mean the old carapace, which has the rest of the molt still attached, is stuck to the T's fresh carapace? That would make a lot more sense.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
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  3. Yvan Daniel

    Yvan Daniel Arachnopeon

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    I will get some pictures later on. For right now I do not want to disturb the tarantula. To take picture I will have to put it on its side because from the top you would only see a tarantula with 16 legs. I wrote exoskeleton because this is what the molt or the old carapace is. I am no expert in tarantula but I am a scientist and I my description & theory about what might have happened is sound because for now there are no other explanation. I do understand the exceptional oddness of this situation. This situation is most likely to lead to the death of the tarantula because it has been too long already and hardening of the new skeleton is well under its way. One other possibility is that the two forward pedipalps might not have came out of the previous skeleton. That is difficult to observe. By tomorrow I will try to find out. Eventually the autopsy (i hope not) will tell.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
  4. Ghost56

    Ghost56 Arachnobaron Active Member

    Not to be rude, but no, your description isn't sound. The cephalothorax is the whole front part of the tarantula, which means carapace and everything below it. If that was stuck, there would be no possible way for the legs to get free from the old molt. That's why I'm confused. Now if the two carapaces are just stuck together, that's not that bad.

    I get the theory you have going, but if that was the case, the T would be perfectly fine. I've never heard of such a thing happening, and not coming loose with ease. So something was definitely stuck in the molting process.

    Look at this pic, and then try to re-explain it if you don't mind. https://www.google.com/search?q=cephalothorax&rlz=1C1CHZL_enUS699US699&tbm=isch&imgil=ffePnAoSd2eOHM%3A%3BLcrBwfDRPoIjWM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fkids.britannica.com%252Fcomptons%252Fart-178266%252FThe-external-organization-of-an-arachnid-shows-the-cephalothorax-and&source=iu&pf=m&fir=ffePnAoSd2eOHM%3A%2CLcrBwfDRPoIjWM%2C_&usg=__vTulA8JMfy_VW9SbJUlyWvUnUys=&biw=1920&bih=1012&ved=0ahUKEwjdgvuQt-PSAhVk04MKHSONCwEQyjcIUA&ei=Ju3OWN3XFuSmjwSjmq4I#imgrc=ffePnAoSd2eOHM:
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
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  5. Ghost56

    Ghost56 Arachnobaron Active Member

  6. cold blood

    cold blood ArachnoGod Active Member

    Yes, I am a little unclear...until Ghost mentioned carapace, I was thinking it was caught on the ventral side, which would explain it falling onto its back...if I read that right,

    Anyway, to render help, its always best to do so quickly, because waiting too long will cause everything to harden back up, which really complicates things.

    At this point I am certain its crispy hard and to give advice on how to help, only a pic will work.

    I'm guessing you will need to pinch grab the spider and manually free it as best you can...it probably will either be very very quick and easy, or a total labor intensive pain in the you know what.
     
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  7. Yvan Daniel

    Yvan Daniel Arachnopeon

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    Well, as you said the cephalothorax is indeed the whole front part of the tarantula, which means carapace and everything below it (including the "legs") You say that If that was stuck, there would be no possible way for the legs to get free from the old molt. Unless the legs got out first then somehow (my explanation) the "belly" of the new emerged soft tarantula was pressed against the "exit area" and got glued to it.

    So, since there is always some molting fluid between the old exoskeleton and the new one, the "exit area" is most likely contaminated somehow by this fluid and this could get sticky...

    I look at your link and yes indeed it is the cephalothorax I was talking about. I guess that when I wrote "stuck by the thorax as said, NOT by the "abdomen", the "abdomen" (i.e. the rear part of the tarantula)" I was not clear enough?

    I understand the confusion. This is very not typical. The reason why i want to let the tarantula alone (resting) before taking pictures is that I have already manipulated it recently; first to hydrate its habitat and to moist around the junction of the two skeleton as said. Just try to picture two tarantula on top of each other... For now I cannot do anything else. Just manipulating it to take picture will simply stress it further. But If I could do or try something else at the same time it would be worthwhile....

    Thanks for your input!
     
  8. Yvan Daniel

    Yvan Daniel Arachnopeon

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    I will definitively post pictures and provide final status whatever the end issue.. dead or alive...
     
  9. Ghost56

    Ghost56 Arachnobaron Active Member

    I understand what you were trying to say to an extent, but if that's the case, I don't see it being a big issue at all. A tarantula being stuck in a molt vs some dried molting fluid temporarily gluing the freshly completed molted exo to the new exo is two COMPLETELY different ball games, I would think. The first usually being fatal, and the second not even almost IMO. That's why your description wasn't really making any sense to me. The way you describe the second half is as if the T is most likely going to die. Sorry for the confusion.

    Now, if the molt is simply stuck to the new exo from a little dried molting fluid. It should come right off with a little moisture, I would think.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
  10. Yvan Daniel

    Yvan Daniel Arachnopeon

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    Thanks again for the input.

    Questions;
    1) Maybe water as "you think" might do the trick, but is there a known solution (i.e. liquid) more indicated in this scenario to dissolve the molting fluid?
    2) if indeed the two forward pedipalps did not came out of the previous skeleton as speculated, what could be done about that?
    3) could the the old legs be cut? Without fear of infection through the invaginations of the now missing parts?

    In my initial post i wrote "In the process I did moist the "edges" around the "joint" of the two thorax taking care not to interfere with the book lungs" and it would not dissolve the sticking "stuff". The reason why i wrote that it would probably die is because almost all of the scenarios where the complete molting extends more than what is suppose to be the tarantulas died. So the probabilities (I think) are real. Manipulating the tarantula during this window is already (i think) a serious threat to internal/external injuries.

    I intend to do my best under magnification to find out about the pedipalps and the fangs health/status . But I suspect that if the two forward pedipalps did not came out of the previous skeleton as speculated it could explain why the whole thorax came back onto the belly of the "emerged" tarantula. And, from what i have read on the subject, if pedipalps do have joints (i don't know) then, the internal joints are most probably too hard now to come out of the old skeleton. In this scenario the pet is indeed deemed to die.

    So, until I have answers to the 3 questions above (that could have been brought forward by any expert, since -as said- I am no expert) I think the situation will not be resolved.

    One avenue could be to severe the old legs and wait until the next molt (provided the pedipalps and fangs are OK) but i fear infection through the invaginations of the now missing parts (since the remainder of the exoskeleton would still be attached to the tarantula).

    It would have been great to have these answers/inputs/suggestions before my observations/pictures that will proceed shortly. Because, as said, it will stress the pet without bringing any short term benefit.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
  11. Ghost56

    Ghost56 Arachnobaron Active Member

    Not sure how safe it would be for the tarantula, but water with a tiny drop of dish soap would work wonders.

    As for the pedipalps, she should remove them herself eventually. As long as her fangs are intact and free, I think the probabilities of living are pretty high. If she's upside down still and you can access her mouth, drip some water on it to allow her to drink. She may gain enough energy to do what she needs to do.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
  12. smitje

    smitje Arachnosquire Active Member

    My smithi ran arround with part of her molt. As mentioned above, some water did the trick. I didnt use soap.
     
  13. Yvan Daniel

    Yvan Daniel Arachnopeon

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    Sorry, will not be able to supply imagery for now, the tarantula has "succeeded" sort of speak in breaking free one of the thorax "fused" side. I say sort of with respect to the success because it seems that there is a lot of internal bleeding. Trying to take pictures was distracting me from my main objective: trying to find out what is going on. I could not. It is a total mess. I tried to investigate the pedipalps and fangs status and everything (at the front) is somewhat strangely intertwined and when i saw the internals by the opened "damaged" side it seems so bad (it is as i could see internal organs and lots of bleeding) that I decided to leave the tarantula alone until it either recover or die by itself. I gave it some water but cannot ascertain that it was able to swallow some of it. I will try to give it water once per day, leaving it on its back and not move it anymore.

    I am 100% positive that the damage observed was not a consequence of my handling, i do not intend to enter the details here. Rather, as anticipated something went wrong. I do not know at this moment the age of this tarantula. Only that it is not an aged one. When given stimulus it appears to still have some good energy. However under observation it does not move at all.

    I hate being always right when theorizing about something.
    I wish so much I am wrong because I think the chances for it to survive are very very slim at best...

    Only time will tell. As said I will come back when something significant happens. It might take days or weeks. I do not know.
    Maybe when the new exoskeleton hardens further and if still alive and strong the tarantula will be able to get rid of the old exoskeleton?
    Maybe what appears to be internal bleeding is just misinterpretation...
     
  14. Ghost56

    Ghost56 Arachnobaron Active Member

    It may have been a wet molt if you see a bunch of fluids. If that's the case, then I doubt it'll make it.
     
  15. Yvan Daniel

    Yvan Daniel Arachnopeon

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    I took a look at some posts/pictures of wet molt and there seems to be a correlation. In the case of my daughter tarantula it is so bad that i had absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the only thing i can do is to leave it alone. Trying to help it "unstick" the other side is helpless. It looks as if its belly "exoplate" has detached from the body and now the pet cephalothorax seems to be torn apart. Anyway, hopefully the pet is indeed intact and all of this is just a thick residual liquid under its belly and that the body is intact (the whole old exoskeleton is still partially attached and the frontal section specifically it still totally fused). I look at many videos of normal tarantula molting + read as much as possible on the subject. Typically it seems to take from a few minutes to 8-12 hours at most. Now It has passed the 4 days barrier since the 8 legs were out of the old exoskeleton. Life however is amazing. This thing might not move for weeks and recover. So, talk to you then. Thanks for your input and support!
     
  16. smitje

    smitje Arachnosquire Active Member

    It doesnt sound very well. Their ressiliance is sometimes overestimated. Good luck!
     
  17. Yvan Daniel

    Yvan Daniel Arachnopeon

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    Update! (despite what is written above since it is significant). When watering the pet a few minutes ago i could observe now that the pedipalps and fangs are out too. I guess they were out yesterday but as the new exoskeleton is hardening things up front are starting to make more sense (the now stretched pedipalps are leaving some opening for observation). Did not want to pull on the side that was opened yesterday. Lots of fluids appear to have kind of "sealed" the opening. Needless to say the pet is still on its back. The fluids might be coming from the old exoskeleton above. So almost back to step one; the two exos are totally fused again but the pet is still alive and still have some energy. My plan is to water it, wait until the new legs and new exoskeleton are fully hardened and then (if still alive of course) work out the separation of the two exoskeletons (i would take picture before!). Meanwhile I will search and ask if indeed;

    Is there any liquid solution that would be more effective than water or water & soap to dissolve the ("hardened") molting fluid?
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
  18. smitje

    smitje Arachnosquire Active Member

    Sulfuric acid. But I wouldnt recommend that. Go for the water, it will work or it wont. T's die sometimes........ little else you can really do, dont screw arround with it.
     
  19. cold blood

    cold blood ArachnoGod Active Member

    How in the world could a 2 second pic be distracting in any way?...you don't even have to touch it, just lower a camera in, and click it.

    I don't think you are grasping just how important a pic is in this situation. With a pic in the original post, this may have been cleared up in 15 minutes....it may not have been, but it would have answered most of our questions so we could offer more solid advice.

    The problem seems to just be the timeframe from the last molt. After re-hardening, it now seems like they are fused and removal is damaging the new exo (speculation). If this is the case, just cutting away as much of the old as possible may be a solution...if enough can be cut away so that the t can function, the next molt will likely solve the issue.

    That said, I would probably (don't know, because I can't see the issue) wet the old and try to manipulate it off if I could.

    I'm sure there are many things that would soften it, but water with a little dawn detergent is probably the only thing that will be safe for the tarantula.

    Best of luck...we can help more if we can see. If something ever happens like this in the future, its always best to act as quickly as possible...time is your biggest enemy.
     
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  20. Ghost56

    Ghost56 Arachnobaron Active Member

    Perfectly said.