Tarantula hoarders?

[SonsofArachne]

From time to time I see the terms "Tarantula hoarder" "stamp collector" or saying someone "has too many T's" being thrown around these forums, almost never directed a specific individual. My question is how do these people decide how many is too many, and who has too many? Is it 25? 50? 100? 500?
First of all the the only true definition of a animal hoarder is someone who has more animals than they can care for. And obviously this this changes depending on the type of animal the person is keeping. There are huge differences in time and effort involved keeping dogs, cats, or parrots than with inverts.
From my personal perspective: I have a lot of inverts and have no trouble taking care of them. The number of animals I've had die are small, and of those only a couple were due to husbandry issues. If I were the the only one on here with a large collection I would be more inclined to think I was doing something wrong, but there are number of people with large collections on here, many of whom are well respected members. And no one would say a breeder who has hundreds of T's is a hoarder, so what are these people really saying?
In conclusion the cynic in me tends to think what the people who use the term Tarantula hoarder really mean is "anyone who has all the T's I wish I had". I'm might get some backlash for this opinion but my experience with human nature tells I'm probably right in a lot of cases.

 

[Greasylake]

I think the only time you have too many is when you get to a point where you aren't able or willing to care for all your inverts. That would be a different point for everyone. I don't think I'd be able to care for more than 75 or 100 because of space and time, while others here can comfortably take care of twice that.

 

[SonsofArachne]

I think the only time you have too many is when you get to a point where you aren't able or willing to care for all your inverts. That would be a different point for everyone. I don't think I'd be able to care for more than 75 or 100 because of space and time, while others here can comfortably take care of twice that.

I agree and have always told myself if it gets to be a problem I will reduce my collection, starting with the ones I have multiples of, of course.

 

[Nightstalker47]

Yeah, more then you can adequately care for. Nothing like seeing hundreds of badly kept specimens, that would definitely be considered hoarding to me.

 

[SonsofArachne]

Yeah, more then you can adequately care for. Nothing like seeing hundreds of badly kept specimens, that would definitely be considered hoarding to me.

There's really no excuse for bad husbandry with inverts, considering that most inverts are fairly easy to take care of. But most people I've seen using terms like hoarder on arachnoboards were only talking about numbers and never mentioned care, which is why I brought this up. I guess it bugs me when people start deciding how many animals someone should have without any real knowledge of that persons situation.

 

[Polenth]

A hoarder isn't anyone with a lot of a particular thing. To be diagnosed as having hoarding disorder/compulsive hoarding, there'd need to be signs that it was unmanageable and interfering in daily life. Hoarders can have difficulty looking after themselves and maintaining relationships. Hoards are usually poorly organised and the hoarder may have issues giving anything up as they're emotionally attached to all the items.

Genuine examples of hoarding in animal communities are pretty thin on the ground. Far more common are people who didn't research before getting animals, don't really care about the animals, or refuse all advice. Which isn't to say that I've never seen someone hoarding, but it's not a term I'd throw around lightly. If someone is simply a terrible pet owner, I stick with calling them that.

 

[SonsofArachne]

A hoarder isn't anyone with a lot of a particular thing. To be diagnosed as having hoarding disorder/compulsive hoarding, there'd need to be signs that it was unmanageable and interfering in daily life. Hoarders can have difficulty looking after themselves and maintaining relationships. Hoards are usually poorly organised and the hoarder may have issues giving anything up as they're emotionally attached to all the items.

Genuine examples of hoarding in animal communities are pretty thin on the ground. Far more common are people who didn't research before getting animals, don't really care about the animals, or refuse all advice. Which isn't to say that I've never seen someone hoarding, but it's not a term I'd throw around lightly. If someone is simply a terrible pet owner, I stick with calling them that.

I understand what you're saying, although I think many people define "animal hoarder" in different ways. Obviously the least accurate is what I'm talking about, that is just people with a "lot" of animals, regardless of how well they care for them. Which is one of the reasons it concerns me, it trivializes a serious condition to make a thinly veiled insult.

 

[BoyFromLA]

As for me it would be around 60. I don’t think I would be able to keep up with all of them if it’s more than 60. So far 56, I am taking care of.

 

[Vanessa]

I would say it was someone who has their tarantulas in inadequate enclosures without enough space to even turn around, because they have so many that they don't have the room to house them appropriately - especially large arboreal species. That is the biggest red flag and often goes hand in hand with a higher number of deaths than average.
Also, I see a lot of people doing stupid things with breeding and they are breeding a lot... like every single one of the tarantulas that they have. Stupid things like breeding species that they won't be able to sell, hybridizing - not intentionally, but because they haven't done their due diligence to determine that they have the right species. People who think they're going to get rich breeding tarantulas, so they collect as many as possible in a short amount of time.
Not being able to care for them is too wide a blanket for an animal who requires almost no care. That is better applied to animals who need to eat every day, require vet care and inoculations, need exercise and enrichment - not an animal who needs food once a month and some dirt. Other factors need to be looked at for tarantulas, because they can be hoarded to their detriment... even if they don't fall into the same category as other animals.

 

[chanda]

Tarantula hoarders are the worst! I have five of them - my M. balfouri communal - that are hoarding all their molts down in the bottoms of their burrows! I'm sure they just have them stacked haphazardly all over the place down there!

Oh... was that not what you meant?

I can definitely see the potential for going overboard with inverts, whether it qualifies as all-out compulsive hoarding or not. During the summers, when I am preparing to teach classes, I go full-on collector every time I go out hiking, catching and cupping pretty much anything cool or unusual that I find - but even after my summer classes are over, the instinct to collect random bugs is still there and it is difficult to resist sometimes. Fortunately, my desire to acquire more bugs is tempered by the need to care for them - and by my need to travel sometimes, leaving them in the care of my husband. For this reason, most of the locally-caught bugs are released back into the wild as soon as my classes are over.

Compared to a lot of other keepers, my own collection is pretty modest - but it does still represent a good chunk of time to feed and care for everything. On the other hand, it does not impact my ability to live a normal life, nor does it affect the safety and sanitation of my home, as is often the case with people who hoard larger animals like cats or pigeons.

 

[SonsofArachne]

Not being able to care for them is too wide a blanket for an animal who requires almost no care

.
This is kind of my point, the number you have is not really relevant, so why do people feel a need to comment on how many people have without knowing their circumstances. I mean I wouldn't make rude comments about people who only have one, or five T's.

I think some people are only seeing this from their own perspective, "I wouldn't have time to care for that many animals, so how can others?" But for some people, myself included, this is their main (or only) hobby, or they don't have as many other commitments as some people do. Also I've noticed some people with less T's have a tendency to "fuss" with their T's too much, IMO. I've read people's posts where they talk about cleaning the enclosure twice a week, or changing water every day. This is time consuming, unnecessary, and possibly stressful to their T's.

 

[Paul1126]

Too many is down to the person.
Someone might be comfortable looking after 100+ (breeders)

I personally think my 21 is a little excessive.

 

[Ungoliant]

This is kind of my point, the number you have is not really relevant, so why do people feel a need to comment on how many people have without knowing their circumstances. I mean I wouldn't make rude comments about people who only have one, or five T's.

Usually those comments aren't really accusations of hoarding but are primarily intended as criticism of new keepers who quickly acquire a bunch of tarantulas without taking the time to learn about them and gain experience.

In those cases, the poster is usually concerned that the new keeper is getting in over his head (or that he may end up with a bunch of tarantulas to re-home if he loses interest in a few months).

 

[SonsofArachne]

I personally think my 21 is a little excessive.

Just out of curiosity, why does 21 seem excessive to you? Obviously to me that number is ridiculously low, but I wonder what other than time, space, or money, would cause a person to limit themselves to a such a low number? Not judging, just interested.

Usually those comments aren't really accusations of hoarding but are primarily intended as criticism of new keepers who quickly acquire a bunch of tarantulas without taking the time to learn about them and gain experience.

In those cases, the poster is usually concerned that the new keeper is getting in over his head (or that he may end up with a bunch of tarantulas to re-home if he loses interest in a few months).

If the posters were that specific, and maybe that was their intent, I would have no problem. But most the ones I have seen weren't specific, instead just seem to refer to anyone with a lot T's as a hoarder. And I will say I saw this more when I first joined than now, although in this recent post:

http://arachnoboards.com/threads/so...op-unless-im-wrong.314296/page-2#post-2871698

I noticed what I consider unfair comments on the size Petko's collection, mixed in with other , fairer criticisms.

 

[Ungoliant]

If the posters were that specific, and maybe that was their intent, I would have no problem. But most the ones I have seen weren't specific, instead just seem to refer to anyone with a lot T's as a hoarder. And I will say I saw this more when I first joined than now, although in this recent post:

http://arachnoboards.com/threads/so...op-unless-im-wrong.314296/page-2#post-2871698

I noticed what I consider unfair comments on the size Petko's collection, mixed in with other , fairer criticisms.

People see what they consider to be inadequate enclosures/care, and they attribute these deficiencies to the size of the collection as opposed to other factors. Without weighing in on the merits of the criticism in that thread, I can understand how some people might blame hoarding if they see a decline in care that coincides with an increase in the size of the collection.

However, most of the "hoarding" comments I've seen lately on this forum are of the "take some time to learn about what you have instead of collecting tarantulas like Skittles" variety.

 

[SonsofArachne]

It's nice that people are framing this as a concern for the T's well being, and I'm sure some, or even most is, but I think the jealousy factor is being overlooked. I have a friend who had a collectible store which catered to various hobbies which I often helped him out with, and one of the common factors was jealousy over what others had. It's just human nature. I can't believe that isn't at least part of a reason behind some of these comments, although even the posters may not realize it. I'm not saying anything needs to be done about this either. I guess I'm saying if you do make comments like these maybe be specific about what you're saying and think about how this might come off to others.

 

[Teal]

I honestly have not seen anyone say "tarantula hoarder" seriously on here... it is always said lightheartedly, in my experience.

Having said that - True hoarding is a mental disorder, as Polenth described above. People tend to throw around words like hoarder, abuse, neglect, etc when they simply don't agree with aspects of how another person does something... I wish people considered their words more carefully.

 

[The Seraph]

Also I've noticed some people with less T's have a tendency to "fuss" with their T's too much, IMO. I've read people's posts where they talk about cleaning the enclosure twice a week, or changing water every day. This is time consuming, unnecessary, and possibly stressful to their T's.

I think that aspect also derives from said person's experience. If they have kept tarantulas correctly before then they will not fuss over their Ts if they have a small collection. Beginners are much more likely to constantly mess with their tarantulas, especially if they just jumped from cats and dogs to spiders.

 

[Vanessa]

I noticed what I consider unfair comments on the size Petko's collection, mixed in with other , fairer criticisms.

It's not just the tarantulas in his case - it is the dead shrimp, the dead hamster, the sick bearded dragon, the dead centipedes - it is not just about the tarantulas, but all the other animals that he is collecting like mad that he has done little to no research on that are sick and dying. In his defense, he is not the only one. I see other channels where this has been brought up by people, justifiably so, with the same result - the concern for the animals is dismissed and blamed on sour grapes. It's like as if there is a handbook for YouTubers to start throwing out 'hater' to deflect off what people are hating on you for.
In his case, it might not be the classic example of hoarding, because nobody has studied the social media effect and how that might contribute to the psychology of hoarding, but he is absolutely getting animals that he doesn't have the ability to care for properly. Not being able to care for is not limited to space, time, and monetary situation, but also not having done the research required and continuously making impulse purchases. It is a real need for him to get more and more animals, that he is not equipped to care for, because of his perceived obligation to his subscribers - despite it not being in the animal's best interest. Making excuses for animals dying, even owning up to being careless in the guise of 'transparency', doesn't let you off the hook when you just continue with the same behaviour, either.
I think that would be a great thesis for someone studying psychology.

 

[SonsofArachne]

It's not just the tarantulas in his case - it is the dead shrimp, the dead hamster, the sick bearded dragon, the dead centipedes - it is not just about the tarantulas, but all the other animals that he is collecting like mad that he has done little to no research on that are sick and dying. In his defense, he is not the only one. I see other channels where this has been brought up by people, justifiably so, with the same result - the concern for the animals is dismissed and blamed on sour grapes. It's like as if there is a handbook for YouTubers to start throwing out 'hater' to deflect off what people are hating on you for.
In his case, it might not be the classic example of hoarding, because nobody has studied the social media effect and how that might contribute to the psychology of hoarding, but he is absolutely getting animals that he doesn't have the ability to care for properly. Not being able to care for is not limited to space, time, and monetary situation, but also not having done the research required and continuously making impulse purchases. It is a real need for him to get more and more animals, that he is not equipped to care for, because of his perceived obligation to his subscribers - despite it not being in the animal's best interest. Making excuses for animals dying, even owning up to being careless in the guise of 'transparency', doesn't let you off the hook when you just continue with the same behaviour, either.
I think that would be a great thesis for someone studying psychology.

Obviously, not taking care of the animals you have is a problem ( although a dead hamster doesn't necessarily mean bad care - they only live a couple of years) . But as far as T's go, I've seen several of his videos were his fans sent him slings unsolicited, which I doubt many people here would mind if happened to them. That being said, if he has been having trouble keeping up he should probably quietly start giving these extra slings away and ask that no one send him more.