Tarantula Dealers at Toronto Expos

[Vanessa]

Last week there were a number of venomous snakes confiscated in Toronto which made headlines on all our media outlets.
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...-20-venomous-snakes-from-north-york-home.html
According to one of our tarantula dealers - they are no longer permitted to sell or bring tarantulas with them to the monthly Reptile Expos being held in Downsview Park.
One of the dealers will be there to sell supplies only, and take orders that they will later ship, but they are no longer permitted to have the animals there or sell them.
I have sent an email to Tarantula Canada and I am waiting to hear back from them as well, but it looks as though this latest situation has far reaching consequences for everyone.

 

[EulersK]

I don't get this. How is it that an offense with snakes reached out to arachnids? I'm assuming that the same restrictions have been placed on scorpions and centipedes?

 

[Chris LXXIX]

I don't get this. How is it that an offense with snakes reached out to arachnids? I'm assuming that the same restrictions have been placed on scorpions and centipedes?

I don't know. Here in Italy venomous snakes (all venomous snakes, no exceptions, including the native ones we have such badass mountains vipers) were banned to being privately kept long before the laughable (now a bit fixed, more or less) arachnid ban. I was a little kid when that happened, while the arachnid ban occurred in 2003.

 

[EulersK]

I don't know. Here in Italy venomous snakes (all venomous snakes, no exceptions, including the native ones we have such badass mountains vipers) were banned to being privately kept long before the laughable (now a bit fixed, more or less) arachnid ban. I was a little kid when that happened, while the arachnid ban occurred in 2003.

Man, Italy isn't messing around with venomous pets, are they? Second only to Australia, apparently.

 

[Vanessa]

The Toronto by-law states that no venomous animals are permitted in Toronto - with the definition of animals to include invertebrates.
Enforcing by-laws is a huge problem in Toronto and the by-law office has always prioritized enforcing other by-laws due to resources being unavailable.
This specific by-law has always been enforced on a per complaint basis only.
Invertebrates have managed to stay under the radar, but this situation has brought the entire by-law front and center and the Expo organizers are feeling the pinch first.

 

[Vanessa]

I don't get this. How is it that an offense with snakes reached out to arachnids? I'm assuming that the same restrictions have been placed on scorpions and centipedes?

All venomous animals are banned in Toronto - with the definition of animal including invertebrates.
It is almost impossible to enforce the by-laws when it comes to individuals and they were only ever investigated on a 'per complaint' basis.
That is a different story when it comes to expos - they are right out in the open in public. Should a by-law officer decide to take a walk through, the organizers would be held accountable and fined.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

Man, Italy isn't messing around with venomous pets, are they? Second only to Australia, apparently.

Mah... I have to say my man, while I understand your point of view and what you are saying (after all I keep mention the arachnid ban occurred in Italy, but also for show how much of disgraced politicians are, as a perpetual reminder) let me tell you that here the situation isn't that bad at all, IMO.

For instance, no restrictions about centipedes, no matter how much venomous they can be.

We can keep all the Theraphosidae from a 'grammo' to a S.calceatum. Yeah... sucks because we can't buy/trade/invertsonal those online 24/7 X 365 like you guys do (even if, mark my words, I can't exclude what's inside certain parcels, ah ah) and we have to rely only to authorized arachnids expo/s... but the selection is good and we have few but skilled breeders, especially here in Northern Italy.

Another thing that IMO is a 'Pro' are the CITES papers that the authorities, always severe but friendly on that issue, are prone to sign when a CITES protected (in this case arachnids, therefore P.imperator and genus Brachypelma) animal is involved. Think about that... if certain 'Pokies' would fall under CITES... no problems here. Good.

B.dubia and roaches? No limits, restrictions or else, while I've read that in certain nations and U.S states aren't allowed, for different reasons.

So, in Italy, what's illegal to keep, at the end?

- venomous snakes
- snapping turtles
- Hot venom arachnids (therefore not an 'OBT', but a P.nigriventer, A.robustus, S.hahni and all of those Scorpions Hot venom bandwagon)

If you ask me, better than a kick in the manly parts :-s

 

[Vanessa]

The response from Tarantula Canada...

Toronto / Downsview Reptile Expo Sunday January 15 URGENT UPDATE
We were set to attend the expo this weekend, but due to recent events in the city of Toronto (namely, the confiscation of venomous snakes) the expo organizers have made the decision to disallow tarantulas and other arachnids for this expo.
At this time we are looking into different options, including the possibility of setting up a table for just dry goods or making the trip out for drop offs only, but we should have a plan by tonight and will make an announcement.

 

[EulersK]

making the trip out for drop offs only

So the organizers of this expo are openly, publicly admitting that they'll hand-deliver illegal animals to your door. On your post of by-laws, how is this not getting the attention of enforcers?

 

[Vanessa]

So the organizers of this expo are openly, publicly admitting that they'll hand-deliver illegal animals to your door. On your post of by-laws, how is this not getting the attention of enforcers?

Tarantula Canada are not the organizers - they are a vendor only. Reptile Expo are the organizers.
And just because they are meeting in Toronto, doesn't mean the animals are staying in Toronto. People come from hundreds of miles to the expos.
Toronto has millions of people living in it - our by-law officers don't have the time to enforce parking lot meetups.

 

[Trenor]

So the organizers of this expo are openly, publicly admitting that they'll hand-deliver illegal animals to your door. On your post of by-laws, how is this not getting the attention of enforcers?

The orginizers said they didn't want to allow them.

the expo organizers have made the decision to disallow tarantulas and other arachnids for this expo.

Tarantula Canada was talking about themselves for the drop off thing.

At this time we are looking into different options, including the possibility of setting up a table for just dry goods or making the trip out for drop offs only, but we should have a plan by tonight and will make an announcement.

 

[viper69]

I think this is an excellent example of the main point @Poec54 always maintained, for which many on the forum would laugh at him at "best", and think he was fear-mongering etc and many other worse things.

 

[Vanessa]

I'm hoping that when all the hype over this dies down, the expos will again allow them. However, the by-laws are not going to change and this might have been the nail in the coffin and the way things will be from here on out.
I'm not sure if the organizers of Reptile Expo would bother to relocate this show for only three or four invertebrate vendors. The rest of the show consists of reptiles not prohibited by the by-laws and it is an excellent location.

 

[Trenor]

I think this is an excellent example of the main point @Poec54 always maintained, for which many on the forum would laugh at him at "best", and think he was fear-mongering etc and many other worse things.

Huh? That by-laws that have been in place for a long time would finally be enforced and cause problems for T keepers in that area? Did he really say that at all? If I remember correctly he preached inexperienced newbie OW T bites as being the harbinger of the Tarantula Apocalypse that would doom us all.

 

[viper69]

Huh? That by-laws that have been in place for a long time would finally be enforced and cause problems for T keepers in that area? Did he really say that at all? If I remember correctly he preached inexperienced newbie OW T bites as being the harbinger of the Tarantula Apocalypse that would doom us all.

While he mentioned new people, his main point was that government interferes in areas that it has little knowledge of, and often with knee jerk reactions. The Lacey Act is a good example here in the USA.

He mentioned the above several times. The new owners were only the "fuse" that would set things in motion in the example he often mentioned.

His gripe wasn't against the new owners per se, it was gov't's response to them.

 

[Trenor]

While he mentioned new people, his main point was that government interferes in areas that it has little knowledge of, and often with knee jerk reactions. The Lacey Act is a good example here in the USA.

He mentioned the above several times. The new owners were only the "fuse" that would set things in motion in the example he often mentioned.

His gripe wasn't against the new owners per se, it was gov't's response to them.

In this case though a person (doesn't say if he was a new keeper or not) ordered a lot of snakes that were illegal in his area due to the by-laws and got reported by the border services. So Toronto rolled in, seized them and fined the man. How does that have to do with any knee jerk/over reach? He order so many snakes that he gained their notice and got in trouble for it. Because of that others are worried if they bring illegal animals to the show they will get fined too since officials may be on the lookout for these kind of things ATM.

The same thing would have happened if someone called in a keeper that had a lot of snakes/Ts in Toronto. It doesn't look like they will hunt for you but they will take you down if you are brought to their attention. As far as I knew this has always been the case there.

I still don't see how this matches with what I used to see him say.

 

[viper69]

In this case though a person (doesn't say if he was a new keeper or not) ordered a lot of snakes that were illegal in his area due to the by-laws and got reported by the border services. So Toronto rolled in, seized them and fined the man. How does that have to do with any knee jerk/over reach? He order so many snakes that he gained their notice and got in trouble for it. Because of that others are worried if they bring illegal animals to the show they will get fined too since officials may be on the lookout for these kind of things ATM.

The same thing would have happened if someone called in a keeper that had a lot of snakes/Ts in Toronto. It doesn't look like they will hunt for you but they will take you down if you are brought to their attention. As far as I knew this has always been the case there.

I still don't see how this matches with what I used to see him say.

I see what you mean, you are correct I believe.

My point was venomous snakes and venomous tarantulas are worlds apart in danger to people. But because they are venomous, they get tossed into the same "gotta go" category. Sure they are often overlooked, but when something like this happens, all of a sudden "venomous" is what gets the only attention. In short, there is a lack of logical or critical thinking done in general on this subject by gov't.

No different with restrictions put on constrictors. I had a guy tell me a 2 foot ball python with a head as wide as a half dollar "that thing could eat a baby" all because this imbecile was reading stories about constrictors that were 14 feet long in Florida.

Again no logical or critical thinking done.

 

[Vanessa]

By-law infractions are investigated in Toronto on a per complaint basis. A by-law officer is not going to investigate you unless someone has alerted them. Toronto is the fourth largest city in North America and we do not have the resources to investigate without cause.
Being investigated usually requires that the person doing the calling knows that the animals are prohibited by by-law and have access to your home. This rarely happens unless it is a revenge/spite thing done by a roommate or friend/partner. That does occur, but it is extremely rare.
What happens far more frequently, as it did over the summer with the scorpion, is that animals escape and are found by someone who then traces them back to you. I have made a number of posts here in response to new people having advanced species being at a higher risk of this taking place and ruining it for everyone.
This is the first time that I have ever known someone who is so stupid, or selfish, to be caught by the border actually shipping them from overseas and getting caught. This has become a very big deal this time round because of the audacity/stupidity of the snake owner just blatantly shipping them in like this.
People are still going to have them, that will never change unless there is a provincial or federal ban put in place, but invert people have still been lucky to be able to participate in the expos.
That might have come to an end with this taking place.

 

[Trenor]

I see what you mean, you are correct I believe.

My point was venomous snakes and venomous tarantulas are worlds apart in danger to people. But because they are venomous, they get tossed into the same "gotta go" category. Sure they are often overlooked, but when something like this happens, all of a sudden "venomous" is what gets the only attention. In short, there is a lack of logical or critical thinking done in general on this subject by gov't.

No different with restrictions put on constrictors. I had a guy tell me a 2 foot ball python with a head as wide as a half dollar "that thing could eat a baby" all because this imbecile was reading stories about constrictors that were 14 feet long in Florida.

Again no logical or critical thinking done.

I agree that the danger that snakes and tarantulas are vastly different and as such the should be regulated separately.

My take away from this though is if you live in a area that has a ban on these things don't direct order them from overseas as the border check is most likely to catch you. Order them from someone in the country that doesn't live in a ban area and can get them past the border easier. Once in they are less likely to be detected. Which seems to be what every one in Toronto has been doing to get them.

 

[Trenor]

By-law infractions are investigated in Toronto on a per complaint basis. A by-law officer is not going to investigate you unless someone has alerted them. Toronto is the fourth largest city in North America and we do not have the resources to investigate without cause.
Being investigated usually requires that the person doing the calling knows that the animals are prohibited by by-law and have access to your home. This rarely happens unless it is a revenge/spite thing done by a roommate or friend/partner. That does occur, but it is extremely rare.
What happens far more frequently, as it did over the summer with the scorpion, is that animals escape and are found by someone who then traces them back to you. I have made a number of posts here in response to new people having advanced species being at a higher risk of this taking place and ruining it for everyone.
This is the first time that I have ever known someone who is so stupid, or selfish, to be caught by the border actually shipping them from overseas and getting caught. This has become a very big deal this time round because of the audacity/stupidity of the snake owner just blatantly shipping them in like this.
People are still going to have them, that will never change unless there is a provincial or federal ban put in place, but invert people have still been lucky to be able to participate in the expos.
That might have come to an end with this taking place.

It may have. I was really surprised to hear they let them in the expos when they are banned like that. To me that would be a easy spot to check to rack up fines. The companies that setup these events are liable for what people bring and sale at them. I kinda expected them to be checked for illegal pets etc.