T won't eat mouse

[MizM]

Kacey -



Indeed? This is completely new to me. Where did you get this? Has anyone published (paper or Internet) any research or even anecdotal experience to support this? Can you supply references or Internet links?

I'm a bit skeptical because in nature many tarantulas routinely eat vertebrates. For example, I think that either Sam Marshall or Rick C. West reported that Theraphosa blondi, the goliath birdeater, makes a practice of eating forest floor dwelling frogs. And, the literature is replete with photos of wild tarantulas eating all manner of amphibians, reptiles and mammals.

And, some enthusiasts, especially those who keep the giant tarantulas, feed them little else but young mice. Few if any report molting problems.

Lastly, spiders in general and tarantulas in particular use little or no calcium in their exoskeletons (as opposed to crustaceans, for instance), so there's little or no direct link between the two.

If you have any further information I need to see it. Now you have me worried because if what you say is true, I need to rewrite a chapter in the Guide.

There has been a lot of talk here about Ts, specifically T. blondi, being fed a diet exclusively made of of mice. Ensuing molt problems, specifically fang problems were thought to be a result of this. I think Christian did some studies on it and came up with the high content of calcium interefering with another mineral needed for healthy fang development. Magnesium? I can't remember, but that's the gist of what is being referred to.

 

[Bill S]

There have been a lot of threads, typically involving T blondi, which talk of bad molts and number of them blame feeding vertebrates.

Tough to establish causality because blondi is a T that people frequently feed verts to and it's also a T that has lots of problems in captivity, if these threads are any indicator.

I think jumping to the conclusion that calicum is the mechanism by which these events are linked, if indeed they are causally linked, is not super well-founded. But perhaps someone with more biology/chemistry experience can chime in on this one and enlighten us.

Certainly there have been a lot of statements like this made. Over time we all just begin to accept it as given, or at least we become suspicious.

The fact that people periodically blame bad molts or other issues on vertebrate diets doesn't by itself carry any more meaning than the fact that lots of people in the middle ages blamed crop failures on witches. Without some sort of actual data to support those claims, or to reject them, we're not much further ahead.

Since some of the big species are also very prolific, maybe some interested party could set aside a batch of slings divided into two groups - feed one group verts, the other inverts, and report back on the comparative results.

 

[xhexdx]

The fact that people periodically blame bad molts or other issues on vertebrate diets doesn't by itself carry any more meaning than the fact that lots of people in the middle ages blamed crop failures on witches. Without some sort of actual data to support those claims, or to reject them, we're not much further ahead.

Since some of the big species are also very prolific, maybe some interested party could set aside a batch of slings divided into two groups - feed one group verts, the other inverts, and report back on the comparative results.

Good idea, but unless you use something that starts out big (i.e. T. blondi), you may have trouble feeding half inch slings verts.

 

[Bill S]

Good idea, but unless you use something that starts out big (i.e. T. blondi), you may have trouble feeding half inch slings verts.

Is there a reason why you need to do the experimenting on slings? The species that came to mind when I typed my earlier message was L. parahybana. Doesn't take them long to be large enough for experiments.

On a disantly related line of thought - a friend of mine works with vinegaroons. Baby vinegaroons are capable of feeding themselves, but only with small prey. However, mother vinegaroons will catch larger prey and feed it to their babies. My friend has photos of a mother vinegaroon presenting a killed baby rat to its babies - and the babies mobbed the rat and ate it. Because we generally do not raise our captive tarantulas in natural enough conditions to see whether mothers might offer food to babies, we don't know to what extent similar events might happen with the species we keep.

 

[Moltar]

Kacey -



Indeed? This is completely new to me. Where did you get this? Has anyone published (paper or Internet) any research or even anecdotal experience to support this? Can you supply references or Internet links?

I'm a bit skeptical because in nature many tarantulas routinely eat vertebrates. For example, I think that either Sam Marshall or Rick C. West reported that Theraphosa blondi, the goliath birdeater, makes a practice of eating forest floor dwelling frogs. And, the literature is replete with photos of wild tarantulas eating all manner of amphibians, reptiles and mammals.

And, some enthusiasts, especially those who keep the giant tarantulas, feed them little else but young mice. Few if any report molting problems.

Lastly, spiders in general and tarantulas in particular use little or no calcium in their exoskeletons (as opposed to crustaceans, for instance), so there's little or no direct link between the two.

If you have any further information I need to see it. Now you have me worried because if what you say is true, I need to rewrite a chapter in the Guide.

There has been a lot of talk here about Ts, specifically T. blondi, being fed a diet exclusively made of of mice. Ensuing molt problems, specifically fang problems were thought to be a result of this. I think Christian did some studies on it and came up with the high content of calcium interefering with another mineral needed for healthy fang development. Magnesium? I can't remember, but that's the gist of what is being referred to.

I've read a lot of these discussions as well. As far as I can remember nobody ever really came up with proof beyond anecdotal evidence and some educated guessing.

The apparent facts:

1- T blondi seem to have problems with molts, abnormal fang developement/breakage and cysts. Moreso than other species by a significant margin.

2- Since blondi's are big and hungry they get fed mammalian prey more often than most other species, sometimes even as the staple of their diet.

The conclusion? feeding large amounts of warm blooded, vertebrate prey is bad for fangs and exoskeletons. Let's just say bad for chitin development.

However...

Other species such as L parahybana, P cancerides, A geniculata, etc don't seem to experience these molt/exo/fang problems like T blondi does. At least I can't personally recall reading any stories about large specimens of those species having problems like that. If mice were causing the problems then why not with these other large species?

My conclusion (for whatever it's worth) is that either the exo problems are unrelated to the iron/calcium/magnesium/(whatever) or it is related in some way specific to that species' physiology.

In any case, there's no proof that vert prey does cause these problems nor is there proof that they do not. If you did rewrite the chapter it would just be so you can add "it has been theorized that..." or "some hobbyists believe..."

I've been waiting long enough for a new edition of the Guide, please don't change it now, I promise to buy the hardcover.

 

[Snuggles]

Maybe it's just a reflection of my own personality

That would be my vote.

 

[MizM]

I've read a lot of these discussions as well. As far as I can remember nobody ever really came up with proof beyond anecdotal evidence and some educated guessing.

The apparent facts:

1- T blondi seem to have problems with molts, abnormal fang developement/breakage and cysts. Moreso than other species by a significant margin.

2- Since blondi's are big and hungry they get fed mammalian prey more often than most other species, sometimes even as the staple of their diet.

The conclusion? feeding large amounts of warm blooded, vertebrate prey is bad for fangs and exoskeletons. Let's just say bad for chitin development.

However...

Other species such as L parahybana, P cancerides, A geniculata, etc don't seem to experience these molt/exo/fang problems like T blondi does. At least I can't personally recall reading any stories about large specimens of those species having problems like that. If mice were causing the problems then why not with these other large species?

My conclusion (for whatever it's worth) is that either the exo problems are unrelated to the iron/calcium/magnesium/(whatever) or it is related in some way specific to that species' physiology.

In any case, there's no proof that vert prey does cause these problems nor is there proof that they do not. If you did rewrite the chapter it would just be so you can add "it has been theorized that..." or "some hobbyists believe..."

I've been waiting long enough for a new edition of the Guide, please don't change it now, I promise to buy the hardcover.

Ah yes, CHITIN! Thank you. And yes, all the stories I've read are antecdotal. Perhaphs blondi need more frog in their diet, who knows?

 

[Moltar]

Perhaps blondi need more frog in their diet, who knows?

That could be. If these problems have do do with vert diet it could just be mammals with their high iron or whatever that contribute, but not cold blooded reptiles and amphibians. I'd imagine blondi's eat a lot more frogs and lizards than mice in their home range. (Again, guesswork)

 

[MizM]

That could be. If these problems have do do with vert diet it could just be mammals with their high iron or whatever that contribute, but not cold blooded reptiles and amphibians. I'd imagine blondi's eat a lot more frogs and lizards than mice in their home range. (Again, guesswork)

What we need is more of these intensely curious hobbyists who are willing to take the time to study and document!! (Hint, hint, you young 'uns with time on your hands!!)

Until then, a varied diet is my mantra!

 

[xhexdx]

What we need is more of these intensely curious hobbyists who are willing to take the time to study and document!! (Hint, hint, you young 'uns with time on your hands!!)

Until then, a varied diet is my mantra!

What is this 'time' you speak of?

I work an hour away from home, 5 days a week, 10-hour days.

I have a 9-month old son at home, and a house to maintain.

Maybe I'll cut out some sleep from my schedule.

--Joe

 

[MizM]

What is this 'time' you speak of?
I work an hour away from home, 5 days a week, 10-hour days.
I have a 9-month old son at home, and a house to maintain.
Maybe I'll cut out some sleep from my schedule.
--Joe

That's why I said young 'uns WITH time on their hands. God knows, we sure don't have enough of it!

 

[xhexdx]

That's why I said young 'uns WITH time on their hands. God knows, we sure don't have enough of it!

I know what you mean.