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Stick Insects?

Discussion in 'Insects, Other Invertebrates & Arthropods' started by phillipthephiddipus, Oct 7, 2017.

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    Ok, was at NARBC Tinley and got some pretty cool stuff. But there was one vendor selling Extatosoma tiaratum and this seemed really odd considering how strict APHIS is on Stick insects. Opinions?
     
  2. chanda

    chanda Arachnodemon Active Member

    It is possible that the vendor you saw did not realize that they are illegal - or perhaps he was just gambling on not getting caught.

    They are definitely in the U.S. - but they aren't supposed to be. I saw somebody in San Diego selling Extatosoma tiaratum at a show a few years ago. I also saw a few Craigslist ads for them in the San Diego area, possibly from the same guy. It's been a while, though - and I recently heard from another vendor that does a lot of the local shows that the guy in San Diego got in a bit of trouble for having them.
     
  3. Honestly im surprised NARBC didn't take this dude down. Seen alot sold which worries me. I'd love to have one, but i'ts not worth the risk of the fish and game guys knocking on my door.
     
  4. Salmonsaladsandwich

    Salmonsaladsandwich Arachnoknight Active Member

    How would they find out if you bought one? Even if they did bust the guy I find it doubtful that they would attempt to track down every person who walked out of the show with one of his phasmids. As long as you don't try to sell them or talk about having them openly on the internet you shouldn't have any problems.
     
  5. Redmont

    Redmont Dragon slayer!!! Arachnosupporter

    And don’t post any pics of them, or the feds come a nockin
     
  6. Kookookachu

    Kookookachu Arachnopeon

    Some of the folks on this site are hysterical. You really think the "Feds" have nothing better to do but come knocking on your door to confiscate a phasmid bug? There are currently over 11 million illegal aliens (the human type) living openly in the U.S and demanding amnesty. The government is more concerned with that type of invasive species than the insect type. Honestly, I've only seen this type of obsessive preoccupation with an alleged phasmid ban on Arachnoboards - nowhere else. And its always the same few people disseminating this propaganda. I'm currently on this and hope to get a response to my email to USDA/APHIS soon or I'll eventually give them a phonecall.

    Unless someone on here can cite an actual rule, regulation, or law which clearly states that its illegal to possess phasmids in the US, they should refrain from spreading this unsubstantiated claim.
     
  7. Kookookachu

    Kookookachu Arachnopeon

    Some of the folks on this site are hysterical. You really think the "Feds" have nothing better to do but come knocking on your door to confiscate a phasmid bug? There are currently over 11 million illegal aliens (the human type) living openly in the U.S and demanding amnesty. The government is more concerned with that type of invasive species than the insect type. Honestly, I've only seen this type of obsessive preoccupation with an alleged phasmid ban on Arachnoboards - nowhere else. And its always the same few people disseminating this propaganda. I'm currently on this and hope to get a response to my email to USDA/APHIS soon or I'll eventually give them a phonecall.

    Unless someone on here can cite an actual rule, regulation, or law which clearly states that its illegal to possess phasmids in the US, they should refrain from spreading this unsubstantiated claim.
     
  8. pannaking22

    pannaking22 Arachnoking Active Member

    To the OP, this response really isn't directed at you, more at Kookookachu who has posted on this a couple times over the past week. Maybe you'll find some good info in it or maybe it'll be clear as mud much like it is for the rest of us lol.

    With regards to someone having phasmids at Tinley, I'm surprised, but not as much as I probably should be considering there's a guy that typically has exotic beetle larvae for sale too. Keep in mind though there are FWS agents that go through the show every year. Their focus is more on people selling herp species found in Illinois, but they still take note of other things being offered so I'm sure they were noticed. Shutting them down at the show would have been difficult and likely would have caused a large disturbance that would have thrown off the show for the day, which isn't what anyone there wants. That seller has likely been written down though and he may get a visit at some point. These being sold in Illinois to people most likely from the upper Midwest helps because of the harsh winters that should kill off exotic phasmids at any life stage. That may add a bit of leniency to these rules.

    Keep in mind that quote was from 2012, so some info might be a bit dated. While there isn't a rule that states this in black and white, I guarantee that if you're importing phasmids you'll be submitted to scrutiny and not having the proper permits could be an issue. Same will go with if you're moving them across state lines.

    Rules and regs will vary state by state too. Some states might be ok with certain species being brought in, while others will ban all of them (FL, CA, etc.). You'll need Permit PPQ 526 pretty much regardless.

    Where this would likely be covered is under the Lacey Act, which prohibits basically anything that consumes plant matter in any form. Is it vague? Holy crap yes. However this allows them to come check out these phasmids if they so choose to. You might not get picked off as quickly as someone who has giant African land snails, but you'll still likely make your way onto some list where something may or may not happen to you. Here's a link to the Lacey Act - https://www.fws.gov/le/pdffiles/Lacey.pdf

    The biggest concern of all of this is that consistent breaking of rules may lead to much stricter rules where all of a sudden things that were kind of ignored (say, some of the exotic millipedes or roaches) are all of a sudden a big target.

    Calling USDA-APHIS and FWS would probably get you a quicker answer than waiting on an email, or you could go to your local USDA or FWS office and talk to someone about it. I'm really curious to hear if they take the rules as vaguely as they are written or if they have a clearer read of it.
     
  9. Redmont

    Redmont Dragon slayer!!! Arachnosupporter

    Yes they have better things to do and I beleave they are understaffed but people do get caught with them and they get taken away, Bugs in syberspace was recently paid a visit by the USDA granted he is a large dealer, it’s just not a good idea to post pics of them
     
  10. MatisIsLoveMantisIsLyf

    MatisIsLoveMantisIsLyf Arachnoknight Active Member

    Eat my eggplant goverment. I will do whatever I want with my bugs, they don't hurt or annoy anyone, so they are logically allowed to stay. People don't understand that people who own pets DON'T release them
     
  11. pannaking22

    pannaking22 Arachnoking Active Member

    They don't release them purposefully anyway. Have you never had an invert accidently get out of its enclosure? And with regards to species that camouflage their eggs as frass are you checking each pellet before you dispose of it? The goal of these laws is to try to decrease the chances of issues that could affect our food source and our natural areas. There may be overreach in some cases, but the idea isn't necessarily a bad one. Really all it takes it one major screw up and we can look at dramatically increased chances of bans and limitations on the creatures we enjoy because the people in charge don't know anything about these creatures. Limitation sucks, but you have to think of your fellow hobbyists as well.
     
  12. Redmont

    Redmont Dragon slayer!!! Arachnosupporter

    A guy just posted on hear I beleave talking about stick insects and he said that some of the tiny ones were geting out, I hope he’s not down south
     
  13. chanda

    chanda Arachnodemon Active Member

    But sometimes they do. I knew a girl (years ago) who was mostly into herps but had gotten some Phyllium siccifolium from somewhere. She thought they were cool and kept them for awhile, then got tired of them - so she told me she just dumped them in her rose garden. I have no idea what happened to them after that, though I assume (or at least hope) they died out because conditions were not suitable for them. But who knows? Maybe they survived and reproduced.

    There are Indian stick insects (Carausius morosus) living in San Diego. How do you think they got there? Either somebody released a few of their pets a few years back or they were careless with their cage cleaning and dumped a bunch of eggs out with the droppings or maybe the babies escaped on their own by crawling through ventilation holes or an open door or by hitching a ride on dead leaves or branches that were being discarded. Regardless of how they got out, they did get out - and established themselves in the new environment.

    While I don't think that I am "hysterical" about the possibility of the authorities coming knocking at the door, I still recognize that it can happen - and that is enough of a deterrant to keep me from buying the illegal phasmids when I've seen them at local shows or listed on Craigslist. Sure, plenty of people are getting away with it, just like there are people getting away with pirating movies or music or manufacturing, selling, or using illicit drugs or any of a number of other minor crimes - but it's not worth the risk of getting caught to gamble on me being the person they overlook and not the person they make an example of. But hey - if you want to take that chance, you know the risks. It's your choice.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. MatisIsLoveMantisIsLyf

    MatisIsLoveMantisIsLyf Arachnoknight Active Member

    I've released invasive species in my country intentionally. But they were already millions of them. I didn't buy them from Africa to release them, I knew that they already had Been here for decades. They don't care about ships and planes who carry soil, food, plants and other stuff. This is where the invasive species come from. Currently most European species are worldwide spread. Why? Because Europe is where most cargo ships and resource ships go to.
     
  15. MatisIsLoveMantisIsLyf

    MatisIsLoveMantisIsLyf Arachnoknight Active Member

    In my country I think most insects are allowed. But If you go to your sheriff, and tell him you own an illegal animal, he'll ask you what type of insect. If you answer a "stick insect", he will burst out laghing. There's a law currently saying that we shouldn't hit dogs, but when we went to our village major, and we asked him to take the stray dogs to a special place, with food, water, and pharmacy, he said
    - I would love to, but the law forbids me for taking any action on wild animals.

    But the law clearly says that stray dogs MUST be cared from the city's/village's major
     
  16. pannaking22

    pannaking22 Arachnoking Active Member

    That would be the difference between our countries then. We aren't allowed to release non-native species because of the impact they can have on the ecosystems. Things that have been here for a long time and have naturalized are accepted, but rules tend to be different for those than natives (ex. we can hunt as many Eurasian collared doves as we want during hunting season, but there's a limit on native doves). And with regards to imports, many shipments get inspected for pests and unless brokers/importers are following rules, shipments can be sent back to their respective country if certain pest species/genera/families are found. Then the broker/importer gets put on a list and after so many infractions they get heavy fines and may even lose their importer's license (assuming they have one).

    The reason European species are so widespread is because while Europeans were colonizing hundreds of years ago they were bringing various species with them without checking or caring in the slightest what they might be bringing with them. Different time so I understand not checking that sort of thing though. Or in cases like with the European starling some idiot didn't find them in North America so he wanted to share the world of Shakespeare and brought over a few dozen pairs. Now it's one of the biggest bird pests here.

    The sheriff isn't going to care about this sort of thing. It's the Fish and Wildlife Service, US Department of Agriculture and the groups below it (APHIS and PPQ), and depending where your stuff is coming from, Customs and Border Patrol. While it all seems relatively minor to bring in a neat bug, plenty of phytophagous insects have made their way into the county and have caused incredible amounts of damage. Potential ag pests are the worst because ag is pretty much what runs our country with regards to food supply and exports.
     
  17. KevinsWither

    KevinsWither Arachnobaron

    About the indian lab stick bugs, I heard they came from a science teacher's classroom long ago.