Stick Insects in the US: Legal Questions

[Arienette]

so only researchers, scientists,and universities can get permits for phasmids?

its true. sorry you lucked out.
and believe you me, if someone has sticks and is reported by ANYONE to the USDA they will be at your doorstep that day.

 

[Insektzuchen]

Hey instead of all this nonsense arguing and trying to make me out to be an idiot, why don't you tell me how to go about with these USDA requisites?? hmm? pretty please?

She's not going to give you any useful information so that you can get a permit from the USDA or any other bureaucratic government agency because she doesn't want you to have any stick insects. :laugh: The reason: Exclusivity. It's no fun having something that everyone else has. It doesn't make it special. If anyone could buy all the stick insects they wanted at a Petland Discounts, for example, she would no longer feel important and part of an exclusive club. Why do you think rich women go out and spend tens of thousands of dollars for an Hermes handbag. The fantastic workmanship? No. They want it because only a select few can have one due to its extreme cost. Again, it's the exclusivity that drives them.
Being that you're so desperate to have a stick insect ("pretty please?") :sarcasm: send me a PM and I'll give you the name of a nice place that sells them. I've seen photos from there where they're holding stick insects that are over a foot long. Giant insects that look like leaves too. I never paid that much attention to it before I read this thread. I'm a centipede fanatic, myself. PM me or send me an email: hassanokemp@gmail.com

 

[zonbonzovi]

Exclusivity, huh? Is there something keeping bizzely from accessing the information him/herself?:sarcasm:

The information is right there for anybody with a pulse and internet access. They even include *gasp* a phone number to talk a real person about permitting.

Being that the agency we're discussing keeps an eye on what is the most active hobbyist site on the web...perhaps a little caution should be entertained when acquiring creatures via methods that aren't above board?

 

[Insektzuchen]

Exclusivity, huh? Is there something keeping bizzely from accessing the information him/herself?:sarcasm:

The information is right there for anybody with a pulse and internet access. They even include *gasp* a phone number to talk a real person about permitting.

Being that the agency we're discussing keeps an eye on what is the most active hobbyist site on the web...perhaps a little caution should be entertained when acquiring creatures via methods that aren't above board?

Is there something preventing Arienette from helping out bizzely, a fellow human being, by simply providing him the basic information and the ins and outs of filling out the paperwork to legally acquire some innocuous insects. And when I used the word "exclusivity", I was referring to the exclusivity of being one of the rare few who's permitted to legally own these stick insects. I didn't mean exclusivity to the information on how to apply for a permit to own one.

People enjoy having things that no one else or only a privileged few have. Would an Amex Black Card still be a status symbol if everyone who applied for one was approved? No.

Lastly, the assertion that the U.S. Department of Agriculture has nothing more important to do than constantly monitor Arachnoboards.com to catch people engaged in shady transactions for Walking Stick Bugs is a bit grandiose. :laugh: They can always find snitches to do that for them.

As you're probably aware, there's been a federal law on the books since the 1970s which bans the possession, sale, transporting etc. of any turtle under 3" in size. The law was enacted because small children were putting the baby turtles in their mouths which exposed the children to Salmonella bacteria. They drew the line at 3" because it was felt that any larger turtle wouldn't fit into a child's mouth. :sarcasm:
And as you're probably also aware there are numerous websites on the Internet devoted solely to the sale of turtle hatchlings under 3". I don't need to name them. The Feds aren't paying them any visits, much less, shutting down their businesses and putting them in jail. Turtles still carry Salmonella bacteria today, just as they did in the 1970s.

 

[spydrhunter1]

1)www.aphis.usda.gov
2) e-authentication...will require you to haul your a** to the local USDA-PPQ office to be verified
3) go back to APHIS website click on permit...sign in if you have been authenticated
4) Fill out Permit PPQ 526
5) Fill out additional questionaires from the USDA as they arrive
6) be willing to provide photos of the place your keeping the sticks
7) pass a home visit from your local APHIS PPQ officer
8) Wait 80 days or more for your permit
9) Expect regular home visits
10) most permits are only good for 3 years and then the process starts over (don't let the old permit expire in the mean time!).
This should do the trick, it's not impossible (but close), I currently have five permits for 10 different arthropods. My hissing roaches are permitted because technically only G. portentosa does NOT require a permit. I have permits for three species of exotic millipedes (technically all millipedes are exotic if they cross state lines). AGB's definitely need a permit.

 

[zonbonzovi]

John, there is more than enough information solely in this thread for one to pursue their desire. I have no problem helping a "fellow human being" with actual needs...wanting a bug falls under an entirely different set of circumstances. I'm well aware of what "exclusivity" means and the context in which you used it. IMHO, the unfettered desire to acquire everything that one does not have is a major problem within both the hobby and our culture, in general. Nowhere did I say anything about "constant monitoring"...that would be ludicrous. Hey, if you want take the risk by all means...but please don't imply that it is a risk without consequences or encourage illegalities openly. It simply is not advantageous to the hobby or the site. As I believe the question has been answered I will withdraw from thread...if you want to discuss finer points, PM me

 

[Arienette]

She's not going to give you any useful information so that you can get a permit from the USDA or any other bureaucratic government agency because she doesn't want you to have any stick insects. :laugh: The reason: Exclusivity. It's no fun having something that everyone else has. It doesn't make it special. If anyone could buy all the stick insects they wanted at a Petland Discounts, for example, she would no longer feel important and part of an exclusive club. Why do you think rich women go out and spend tens of thousands of dollars for an Hermes handbag. The fantastic workmanship? No. They want it because only a select few can have one due to its extreme cost. Again, it's the exclusivity that drives them.
Being that you're so desperate to have a stick insect ("pretty please?") :sarcasm: send me a PM and I'll give you the name of a nice place that sells them. I've seen photos from there where they're holding stick insects that are over a foot long. Giant insects that look like leaves too. I never paid that much attention to it before I read this thread. I'm a centipede fanatic, myself. PM me or send me an email: hassanokemp@gmail.com

youre an idiot. theres no "secret handshake clubhouse" here. it's just about being legal.
i love my tarantulas just as much as my sticks, and theres no exclusivity there... so...

 

[Tenodera]

I would love to have exotic stick insects and dynastines and wetas, but I've long come to grips with the fact that it's not going to happen now. My general advice is: stop promoting illegal animals for all of our good, and be content with the ones we have. Rather than go to some underground dealer, catch some Diapheromera and help me learn about them when mine hatch!
It's not about petty hexapodal pride, or sticking it to the man, or anything like that. So don't try to dramatize it because that helps no one.

 

[bizzely]

"yo meet me behind the 7 11 an the corner of main and plum, dont forget the shiz..... i mean stiz izzz. Oh and make sure no one else is fallowing, especially any USDA agents!!!!" haha:laugh: (sorry for corny joke)
Probably not gonna pursue these critters much further. getting a permit and keeping it to date sounds like a hassle. You know i just recovered from the depths of my mind an old memory that sheds some light on my interest and love of inverts and especially sticks. It was the early 90's and I must have been like 4 or 5. I'm laying on my belly on the living room floor with my nose glued in a tropical fish magazine when i turn the page to an article on insect pets (what a concept). There where pictures of katydids, lubber grasshoppers, and the then unknown to me stick insect, various kinds one of which happened to be a giant Eurycantha Calcarata. The image of this beast, outstretched on a human hand was forever burned into my brain.
thanks people for your help though :biggrin:

 

[Transylvania]

I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to keep a close eye on stick insects if you have them. While cleaning their enclosures at the zoo I would often turn around to grab some fresh leaves or something, and just a couple seconds later I'd see that two or three sticks had climbed out of their cages. They're always eager to escape as soon as you start cage maintenance. I had to thoroughly check my clothes and hair before I left the room. They're VERY sneaky. Yes, they're tempting to have as pets, but I realize that I, personally, could not control the little buggers. So I stay away from them, for the good of the environment. If you're really desperate to take care of them, be an insect keeper at a zoo or something.

I'd love to have stick insects. I'd also love to have a tuatara. You can't always get what you want!

 

[bugmankeith]

I know native Walkingsticks die in Winter and eggs go through diapause and hatch in spring.

How can tropical Walkingsticks eggs if in the wild suddenly go through diapause and survive? I don’t see how there’s any threat to them establishing in states with cold winters.

 

[pannaking22]

I know native Walkingsticks die in Winter and eggs go through diapause and hatch in spring.

How can tropical Walkingsticks eggs if in the wild suddenly go through diapause and survive? I don’t see how there’s any threat to them establishing in states with cold winters.

Many of the tropical species are incredibly hardy, so there'd be a decent chance that some of the eggs would survive through winter. Even if they were all to die, there's still the chance that someone in a state with a mild winter would want to buy some and that could lead to an accidental (or purposeful) introduction. If they didn't have the potential to be massive agricultural pests the rules would probably be a little more lax, but considering how much is already spent on invasive species each year we really don't need any more that'll cause new problems.

 

[Sledbaron]

First off, just keeping Phasmids ALIVE is a small miracle. And the only available stick insect in the trade, Extatosoma is parthenogenic. Most require a male to reproduce, and chances of them finding a mate IF they do get loose is very minute.
Leaf insects like Phyllium are all female but very delicate in captivity.

 

[The Mantis Menagerie]

Extatosoma tiaratum is NOT the only parthenogenetic phasmid, and they actually do better when there are both males and females to help with genetic diversity. Phasmids are easy to keep (I maintain colonies at a museum), and this suggests that they could survive easily in the wild as long as it wasn't too cold or too dry. Just because something is delicate in captivity does not mean it is delicate in the wild. Many phasmid species exhibit facultative parthenogenesis, meaning there are males and females, but the males are not completely necessary. The females of this species can still lay fertile eggs without a male.

 

[Sledbaron]

Extatosoma tiaratum is NOT the only parthenogenetic phasmid, and they actually do better when there are both males and females to help with genetic diversity. Phasmids are easy to keep (I maintain colonies at a museum), and this suggests that they could survive easily in the wild as long as it wasn't too cold or too dry. Just because something is delicate in captivity does not mean it is delicate in the wild. Many phasmid species exhibit facultative parthenogenesis, meaning there are males and females, but the males are not completely necessary. The females of this species can still lay fertile eggs without a male.

Extatosoma is the only one available in the pet trade that is easily obtained I meant.
The others are rarer and more difficult to obtain.
P. Giganteum are all female and can pose an agricultural risk but rarely available in the trade, but it's like ferrets- illegal, but they never got loose and ravaged the land.

 

[Sledbaron]

Extatosoma tiaratum is NOT the only parthenogenetic phasmid, and they actually do better when there are both males and females to help with genetic diversity. Phasmids are easy to keep (I maintain colonies at a museum), and this suggests that they could survive easily in the wild as long as it wasn't too cold or too dry. Just because something is delicate in captivity does not mean it is delicate in the wild. Many phasmid species exhibit facultative parthenogenesis, meaning there are males and females, but the males are not completely necessary. The females of this species can still lay fertile eggs without a male.

And from what I understand the Indian Walking Stick, found in Southern California, is an example of an introduced phasmid making its way into the agricultural landscape.

 

[The Mantis Menagerie]

The presence of Carausius morosus in California is not good thing. They are parthenogenetic, and their populations have exploded and are spreading up the coast.

 

[Sledbaron]

The presence of Carausius morosus in California is not good thing. They are parthenogenetic, and their populations have exploded and are spreading up the coast.

I'm not worried.
As an invasive species, Homo sapiens will do everything possible to make sure this planet will have no agriculture or habitat left for animals of any kind to inhabit. Even wood lice and pill bugs - once so common for terrarium clean up crews - were very abundant with every log or rock I lifted ; lately I had to put great effort into finding ANY.

 

[mantisfan101]

The presence of Carausius morosus in California is not good thing. They are parthenogenetic, and their populations have exploded and are spreading up the coast.

This here is an example why these laws were set in place. If some escaped and laid eggs, the amount that would survive would die out but the minority that survived would survive and pass on these genes. I believe the same thing is happening with the burmese pythons in Florida. A sudden drop in temperatures killed off a great many but some were able to resist the cold. Now, more and more pythons are able to handle the termperature fluctuation because of this. The same could apply for the stick insect and it’s simply not worth the risk, as seen in California. These laws were set in motion to protect the native wildlife and ensure their survival for future generations to come.

 

[The Mantis Menagerie]

I'm not worried.
As an invasive species, Homo sapiens will do everything possible to make sure this planet will have no agriculture or habitat left for animals of any kind to inhabit. Even wood lice and pill bugs - once so common for terrarium clean up crews - were very abundant with every log or rock I lifted ; lately I had to put great effort into finding ANY.

One of the bad things humans do is introducing non-native species. As hobbyists, I think we need to do our part to not make things worse by letting pets escape. Not worrying about it does not mean it is not a problem. Proper housing and choosing species that you can keep contained prevents more species from becoming introduced. Exotic phasmids are something I do not plan to keep even though I am trying to get the PPQ 526 permits to keep many species of tropical mantids and beetles. I have worked with phasmids at an insectarium, and I do not think I could prevent their dissemination.