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Starting a Breeding Program for H. longimanus, P. Dictator, P. Imperator and others

Discussion in 'Scorpions' started by Nightrainfalls, May 25, 2017.

  1. Nightrainfalls

    Nightrainfalls Arachnopeon

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    Since I was a child, I have seen a major shift in the way that governments view wildlife. I remember spending my days, turning over rocks, and bringing home what I found. I learned to care for and breed many fascinating species: newts, salamanders, snakes, water beetles, frogs, spiders, Praying Mantids, and many others. Today, in Upstate New York, my entire childhood would be illegal. Like many state governments, New York has decided that all wild life in New York, must stay wild. The parents of a curious child who collects a garter snake from the back yard can be fined or imprisoned. The DEC rigidly enforces the prohibition on collecting all but a very few species that can be used as bait while fishing. It seems strange, but it is alright to catch a frog, and pierce it with a hook for sports fishing, but not alright to gather tad poles from a local puddle and raise them until they turn into frogs.

    My state is not the only state to do this. In fact the trend of outlawing wild collection of species is growing both in the US and abroad. We can look at the example of P Imperator, Dictator, and Gambiensis. These animals where once common in the pet trade. Easy to get, and inexpensive, these marvelous animals provided a gateway for many inquisitive young people to embark on a life long passion collecting and caring for Arachnids and Arthropods. Sadly, as a result of irresponsible over collection, and rigid legal structures that ban instead of regulate, these species are on the brink of being lost to the hobby. Unless you are willing to spend over a hundred dollars, this animal is beyond your means.

    It is a terrible shame that the next generation of Arachnophiles will have an ever shrinking number of species to choose from. The time to act is now. I am proposing that those of us who feel passionately about the hobby of keeping invertebrates start working to ensure that captive breeding keeps as many species as possible in the hobby. Of course many species take years to mate, gestate, mature, and mate again. Large numbers of pairs must be kept to ensure that founder effects, genetic drift, and inbreeding depression do not damage our captive stock. This means that very few single breeders and keepers are in a position to engage in the kind of breeding program needed to ensure we have a long term genetically viable supply of animals for our hobby. So, we have to work together. We have to find keepers with animals we want to preserve, and encourage them to pool specimens into mating pairs. We need to keep rigorous track of the genetics of these animals to ensure minimal inbreeding and preserve genetic diversity.

    I am interested in starting sophisticated captive breeding programs for three species. I am currently awaiting the shipment of several pairs H. longimanus. I am asking anyone who keeps this species to contact me, either through this thread, or through a private message. I cannot keep enough pairs myself to ensure long term genetic diversity. I will need other keepers to outbreed my captive bred animals with. If we can find just forty keepers with single animals, or twenty keepers with pairs, we can virtually ensure the captive survival of this species indefinitely. I am willing to maintain the needed records, design a pairing schedule, and facilitate transportation of individuals. Please if you keep this species, contact me right away.

    I do not currently own P Imperator, or P dictator, however I am asking keepers of these species to contact me directly, so that we can design a breeding program for both species.

    I do not object to anyone profiting from this breeding program, however, I do not expect or desire any compensation for any work I do to ensure the success of this program. I intend to trade my scorpions to other keepers to preserve genetic diversity, and to provide scorpions to those interested in assisting in the breeding program. I need your help to ensure proper outbreeding. Please help keep this hobby alive. Once we have successfully started breeding programs with these species, we can begin to start programs with other important Scorpions and perhaps even T's.

    Imagine how good it will be to know you will always have a supply of your beloved pets and act know. Contact me please. I need your location, gender of your animals, number of animals, contact information, and whether your animals are wild caught or captive bred.

    Thank you in advance for protecting this hobby.

    David
     
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  2. BobBarley

    BobBarley Arachnoprince

    Awesome idea, hope you'll be able to get it started! Unfortunately it's going to take a lot of time and effort and I likely won't be of any help.

    Are you sure what you are receiving is longimanus? H. petersii is far more common in the pet trade.
     
  3. soldierof4cheese

    soldierof4cheese Arachnoknight

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    Bureaucratic BS is killing everything enjoyable for us no bodies.. Great Idea on the breeding, that is what I am up too also.. Just love the Hadogenes troglodytes.
     
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  4. Same. Planning a breeding project for Grosphus grandidieri currently. Turned out the 3 that I bought were all females xD Great they are female but bad that there wasn't a male in there. Plus I have no money but I have time since they are still young.
     
  5. darkness975

    darkness975 the sun grows ever darker Arachnosupporter

    I have a trio of Pandinus imperator slings. Who would have known that a day would come where they would be worth more than Gold. I remember seeing them thrown into 10 gallon tanks with wood chips and a single half log hide by the dozens at the local Petcos and such.

    @Nightrainfalls Where are you located?
     
  6. Red Eunice

    Red Eunice Arachnolord

    He's in the U.S., somewhere?
    Lucky you, P. imperator are so difficult to to find for sale in the states. When available, cost is an arm and a leg, some accept a first born child. Lol!
     
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  7. darkness975

    darkness975 the sun grows ever darker Arachnosupporter

    I know. I acquired them from someone who had "way too many" at the time. The following year the ban came in and now we have what we have. I am not sure about other countries, but here in the good ol' US of A all I have seen at the Petcos and such are Heterometrus. Given the status of P. imperator it seems that a lot of places are trying to push them off as being true emps when in reality they are not.

    I still miss my old emps. I had a handful that were gotten from local pet stores (before I knew better and stopped buying animals from pet stores).

    I asked where he is located because if he is near me we could potentially collaborate on a project.
     
  8. Goodlukwitthat

    Goodlukwitthat Arachnoknight

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    I have 3 female adult H. longimanus and 1 male P. imperator
     
  9. Red Eunice

    Red Eunice Arachnolord

    Gotcha!
    Profile lists Deutschland, thinking Germany, my bad. ;)
     
  10. darkness975

    darkness975 the sun grows ever darker Arachnosupporter

    I speak the language, though do not reside there.
     
  11. Nightrainfalls

    Nightrainfalls Arachnopeon

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    Upstate New York, Near Sodus
     
  12. Nightrainfalls

    Nightrainfalls Arachnopeon

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    [QUOTE="Are you sure what you are receiving is longimanus? H. petersii is far more common in the pet trade.[/QUOTE]

    I am working with an experienced supplier who has already secured three W.C. H. longimanus for me 1.2.0. The males are pretty unmistakable, though obviously the females could be misidentified. The dealer I am working with is going to a show in early June to secure more breeding stock. They are hand picking scorpions for me.

    Of course I will have to key the females out when I get them. Ideally, I am hoping for 2.4.0 The two females already secured are not gravid, but there is a chance I can get at least two that are. One female has a healed injury to the Manus, one has a damaged 5th sternate. The male is in flawless condition. I either female molts again, then it is likely the injuries will disappear. Of course it is possible that either injury may preclude successful mating. In the worst case scenario, only one female breeds and I can get no others, then I have genetics for one brood. In the best case scenario, I get two broods of unknown paternity, then I can breed two males to the two non gravid females, and then breed the males to the gravid females after they pop and successfully rear. This gives me genetics for up to six broods. Essentially 4 male progenitors and four female progenitors.

    If I expect between 8 and 30 scorpions per pairing, factoring in slight infant mortality due to cannibalism etc. I expect between 4 and 180 scorplings. If I get my full number of scorpions I have genetics for at least four generations. If I end up with what I currently have on hold, then I have to outbreed after just one.

    Of course I cannot house 180 full grown scorpions so there is the potential for plenty of trading to improve genetic diversity. This is a great opportunity for anyone who has H. longimanus to help ensure that there captive blood lines continue. It will also be a great opportunity for new keepers to acquire C.B. specimens. Though I do not breed for profit, I would be happy to trade with those who do, so we can both improve our C.B. Scorpion blood lines.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Nightrainfalls

    Nightrainfalls Arachnopeon

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    That is an awesome looking scorpion. Hopefully someone else has that species and will let you breed with his or her male.
     
  14. I know that William King has them (the guy I got my G.grandidieri from got his from Mr. King). I really have no idea how to contact him though but I'll need money first haha
     
  15. Nightrainfalls

    Nightrainfalls Arachnopeon

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    You are close enough for me to drive to you on a weekend, if I bring a male after i finish pairing him with my females, we could pair with your females, and exchange part of each of our broods.
     
  16. Reptilesbyrick

    Reptilesbyrick Arachnopeon

    I just saw your post. I have some 4i CBB Pandinus imperator for sale. I bred them late last summer. Doing great and growing fast. True P. imperator have become very difficult to find. Mine are from true Emperors that I've raised from 2i. It has taken me quite awhile, but it's been fun! Great scorpion species and large, each about 1 1/2 to 2 inches now. Pm me for details or pics and thanks!
     
  17. Scorpionluva

    Scorpionluva Arachnoangel Arachnosupporter

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    Yes i can remember helping unload crates of thousands of emps at a time as cheap as $.50 each. Some gravid females laying there with 1i babies on their backs in a huge pile of others
    Id be a billionaire if id bought ,kept and bred them all lol
    Ive been religiously breeding rhopalurus junceus for about 4 years now and have made sure to do it right also ive got specimens from 4 different sources to ensure no inbreeding. I was also doing the same with about 15 other species but ive let some go to other keepers as i cant keep up with 20 + species at a time now

    I hope your idea gets off the ground and we all can create a network of keepers who can keep many species around for other generations to enjoy before our wonderful govt stops us :)
     
  18. gromgrom

    gromgrom Arachnoprince

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    Every now and then a new hobbyist wants to do some good in the hobby, and to you, I wish you luck. I also wish that you start with more common species to get your chops before you invest hundreds into rarer species so you dont get discouraged and in over your head. That being said, I've got 3 gravid female emperors atm due to other hobbyists pushing me to do something about the insane prices.
     
  19. Reptilesbyrick

    Reptilesbyrick Arachnopeon

    I, too, wish you success. Captive breeding will more than likely be the only sustainable future for this hobby. Maintaining genetic diversity and localities will be the next big challenge. I've also been breeding some Heterometrus species and the Pandinus. I just sold all of my CBB P. imperator babies this week but the same female is gravid again and should have babies later this summer.
     
  20. RTTB

    RTTB Arachnoprince Active Member

    I was present during the glory days of tubs of Emperors going for $5 each. I see today as the glory days for ease of accessibility of new/unique species. I do worry that one or two accidents with highly venomous species could bring things crashing down here in the US.
     
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