Should Non-adults be allowed to own/care for OW species

Should non-adults be allowed to own/care for OW species

  • Yes

    Votes: 136 40.2%
  • No

    Votes: 76 22.5%
  • Maybe

    Votes: 126 37.3%

  • Total voters
    338

Arachn'auQuébec

Arachnosquire
Old Timer
Joined
Nov 21, 2007
Messages
137
We are only sure about our own country and its recent history on this issue, and indicating information on this issue without the qualifiers is tantamount to saying something of which we know nothing about like we do know, yet we really don't know - which is deception, is misleading, and in this case can be deadly (kind of like the statements on WMD's in Iraq)...:D

NW would be like the pellet gun mentioned (ownership controlled by a merchant) - OW would be like a loaded .45ACP (ownership controlled by the BATF) - either could cause harm and perhaps no death, but the latter is more prone to putting you in the ground...only anecdotal reports on this and no firm facts to back this up mind ya!

Did I say OW? sorry, I meant Old World

I couldn't disagree more with you pushing my comparison further with the .45ACP. A .45 acp will most likely kill a child shot anywhere on his little body. It won't put him in bed for 3 days. It WILL kill him. Heck, even the recoil from the gun could be harmful to a child.

As far as we know, Old World species never killed an american child. They sure could, if they bit in the eye, on the tongue(by asphixy as mentionned before) or if by some incredible bad luck it bit a kid in the neck and the fangs reached the carotid. So could a pellet gun MAYBE, in case of extreme bad luck kill a child if he was shot in the eye, temporal area or if it could by some exceptional shot reach the carotid. The bottom line is that Tarantulas, even Old World are extremely unlikely to kill a child as bites are ridiculously unlikely to happen in these areas.
 

BatGirl

MAJOR
Old Timer
Joined
Feb 4, 2008
Messages
139
As far as we know, Old World species never killed an american child.
Exactly!!! - tarantuals have never (in recorded history - qualifier needed here for accuracy) killed an American...

But just because something does not happen in America does not mean it does not happen elsewhere... which is what is implied when we say 'nobody has ever died from...' rather than 'no american has died...' which is closer to the truth.

Contrary to popular belief, the world does not revolve around the uSofA, and anyone claiming that something which does not exist in the uSofA 'official' database just does not exist (i.e. is just considered fantasy) is absurdly conceited (i.e. very American!).

Finally, the entire Merriam-Webster (collegiate) definition for 'anecdote': unpublished; a usually short narrative of an interesting, amusing, or biographical incident.... essentially just an unpublished incident, nothing about it meaning some made-up story, some lie, some form of propaganda, etc. as it has been accused of on this board.

As far as "Do we know every case, no, but until more evidence is presented, it is fair (sic) to say there are no known deaths from T bites" is just absurd - it is indeed not 'fair to say', it's just the opposite! This is like saying 'Do we know every species, no, but until more evidence is presented, it is fair to say there are no other species from earth" (sounds ridiculous , eh? Exactly!!! )
 
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Arachn'auQuébec

Arachnosquire
Old Timer
Joined
Nov 21, 2007
Messages
137
You are right, the world does not revolves around the USA, but the laws of USA, and the medias of USA, wich is what the discussion here is all about (comotion caused by a minor seriously injured by a tarantula), does revolves around the USA. It's sad to say, but nobody here really cares if a child died of a post-bite infection 10 years ago in thailand. If this child was an american, though, it would be totally different. But the thing is, here the wound would most likely have been properly sterilised.
 

BatGirl

MAJOR
Old Timer
Joined
Feb 4, 2008
Messages
139
...the world does not revolves around the USA, but the laws of USA, and the medias of USA, which is what the discussion here is all about (comotion caused by a minor seriously injured by a tarantula), does revolves around the USA. It's sad to say, but nobody here really cares if a child died of a post-bite infection 10 years ago in thailand. If this child was an american, though, it would be totally different...
:embarrassed:

Tell ya what, I'm gonna just go pound sand... (essentially the world revolves around the united States of America, nobody cares about others or anything else in the world, and all is right in Disneyland) WOW! :wall:
 

Arachn'auQuébec

Arachnosquire
Old Timer
Joined
Nov 21, 2007
Messages
137
:embarrassed:

Tell ya what, I'm gonna just go pound sand... (essentially the world revolves around the united States of America, nobody cares about others or anything else in the world, and all is right in Disneyland) WOW! :wall:
Sorry girl, welcome on earth. Legislations are selfish, as I said before, this topic does speaks of a world that revolves around USA: The laws of USA. Basically, caring about others does not mean control them, so something as special but maybe to some really unlikely extend dangerous as a tarantula should not be forbidden to minors in order to protect them, as most minors getting an Old World tarantula will give them the respect they deserve at this point.

Freedom isn't dumbproof

My whole point is that people won't take our Ts away for an hypothetic case that never happened, is really unlikely to happen, and probably won't even cause that much of a commotion if, by some incredibly improbable bad luck does happen someday in USA.

Lets remove our thin foil hat, and not impose ourselves more legislations than is already necessary to comfort the country wives affraid of bush, obama, ben laden, honest plumber joe's deer huntin rifle and the little neighbor's slingshot.
 

BatGirl

MAJOR
Old Timer
Joined
Feb 4, 2008
Messages
139
Should non-adults be allowed BY THE LAW to own/care for OW T's?!?

I thought the thread was about whether parents should allow their kids to own/care for old world tarantulas, and if their judgement should be based upon evidence that old world tarantulas were too dangerous for small children considering the history of harm and deaths (uSofA 'official', unpublished incidents, or otherwise) attributed to these old world tarantulas, but, that new world tarantulas were fine (which is why pet shops only carry them and not the old world tarantulas that would clearly be more of a liability - these typically require special mail order)...

:confused:

... SOooo, we're talking about actual laws forbidding parents from allowing their kids to own/care for old world tarantulas? Is somebody off topic?!? :eek:
 

Xian

Arachnobaron
Old Timer
Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Messages
342
It wasn't about laws or parents. It was just "should Non-adults be allowed to own/care for OW species". It's an opinion question, plain and simple. The parent and age topic is for the maybe choice, again all opinion.:)
 

Arachn'auQuébec

Arachnosquire
Old Timer
Joined
Nov 21, 2007
Messages
137
It wasn't about laws or parents. It was just "should Non-adults be allowed to own/care for OW species". It's an opinion question, plain and simple. The parent and age topic is for the maybe choice, again all opinion.:)
You got it right, all I am saying is 100% oppinion. Don't think I am going too much off topic either, if something is to prevent minors from owning a tarantula, Old World or New World, it will be either conventional ageement between petshop/tarantula dealers, parent decision or a law. All three have been discussed, and all tree belong in this topic In My Oppinion.
 

BatGirl

MAJOR
Old Timer
Joined
Feb 4, 2008
Messages
139
Control of Tarantulas to Minors: :rolleyes:

1. ageement between petshop/tarantula dealers (n/a - very easily bypassed with direct mail, online, etc. order by kids and/or parents)

2. parent decision (only true option to control kids, but needs conscientious responsible parents for this one to work)

3. law (n/a - unenforceable due to #1 above, underground activities, smuggling, catch yourself, etc. - "OK tarantula, pull over - you're under arrest!": the Tarantula Police)

Moving right along - Another scenario (inspired by a vision in my dreams last night that was a lot of fun actually): You got your kid a nice pretty OW tarantula, and the kid is mature and knows what it is doing - all is well and everybody feels good about themselves. BUT, their friend who visits is immature, mischievous, and while junior is on the toilet, the friend plays with the OW tarantula and gets nailed, doesn't say anything to your kid (doesn't want to appear not cool) and leaves because the kid is now feeling 'funny' - on the way home dies, or gets home and winds up losing a foot, or winds up suffering severe nerve damage for the rest of its life, etc. - you get sued and are now one of the homeless... :(
 

Arachn'auQuébec

Arachnosquire
Old Timer
Joined
Nov 21, 2007
Messages
137
Control of Tarantulas to Minors: :rolleyes:

1. ageement between petshop/tarantula dealers (n/a - very easily bypassed with direct mail, online, etc. order by kids and/or parents)
Yes it's applicable. Tell you an example relative to firearms again. Sure a parent could buy a crate of 7.62 and an AK 47(wich need a correct ID, and a maching credit card, a simple system quite tough to bypass by a kid), and then give it to their kid and tell them go play with you friends without further warning. What kind of parent is this? Still the kid wasn't able to purchase it by himself

2. parent decision (only true option to control kids, but needs conscientious responsible parents for this one to work)
I couldn't agree more, parents need to control their kids. But let's look around and open our eyes: a lot of them are spineless and will let their kids do pretty much anything.

3. law (n/a - unenforceable due to #1 above, underground activities, smuggling, catch yourself, etc. - "OK tarantula, pull over - you're under arrest!": the Tarantula Police)
HAHA, AND THEN THEY WOULD HAVE LIKE A SUIT, WITH LIKE 8 LEGS, AND INSTEAD OF A GUN THEY WOULD LIKE, CARRY A SILK THROWER HAHAHA.

Seriously, laws and police are there for numerous reasons. When a guy beats his wife and the neighbors call the police, the wifebeaters policeman does not shows up. Believe it or not they are more versatile than that(though, again, I have been surprised before). What's an enforcable law? Speed limits on the road do not prevent everyone from busting them, however they do change something. A law against tarantulas would have prevented most people here from having a room filled with 10+ Ts. A parent finding a tarantula in his kid's room, knowing it's forbidden by the law, will most likely force him to get rid of it.

Moving right along - Another scenario (inspired by a vision in my dreams last night that was a lot of fun actually): You got your kid a nice pretty OW tarantula, and the kid is mature and knows what it is doing - all is well and everybody feels good about themselves. BUT, their friend who visits is immature, mischievous, and while junior is on the toilet, the friend plays with the OW tarantula and gets nailed, doesn't say anything to your kid (doesn't want to appear not cool) and leaves because the kid is now feeling 'funny' - on the way home dies, or gets home and winds up losing a foot, or winds up suffering severe nerve damage for the rest of its life, etc. - you get sued and are now one of the homeless... :(
Are you suggesting that a kid, feeling his heart beat increase dramatically, a foot swollen twice it's normal size, totally cramped and in an incredible pain won't tell it in order to be cool?

Though as I see you had much fun dreaming of people getting homeless because a kid lost a foot, suffered severe nerve damage or died, again this is a ridiculously unlikely scenario, as our medical system is effective enough to prevent the infections that could make the story end that way.
 

BatGirl

MAJOR
Old Timer
Joined
Feb 4, 2008
Messages
139
Dream Weaver Alert

"dreaming of people getting homeless because a kid lost a foot, suffered severe nerve damage or died" - SOoo, telling others what they dreamed. {D The dream 'inspired' this scenario as duly noted, the dream was NOT the scenario itself (dreams are not that organized... but if you must know, the dream centered around children and the chaos they are capable of, which WAS a lot of fun if you happen to be one of the kids in the dream creating the chaos [I think I was aboard the Star Trek Enterprise and the crew kept wanting we kids to act like adults, but the crew got resistance instead], yet this was also a vision that kids are unpredictable - and that inspired the second scenario)
 
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BatGirl

MAJOR
Old Timer
Joined
Feb 4, 2008
Messages
139
just more 'data'...

Pg. 18 "The Guide to Owning a Tarantula" - Jerry G Wells ~ talking about the tarantulas from the African continent: '...known to cause human deaths in rare cases.' :cool:
 

xhexdx

ArachnoGod
Old Timer
Joined
Jul 20, 2007
Messages
5,357
That's not 'data'. I could write a book and say 'tarantulas are poisonous', but that doesn't make it true just because it's in a book.

Until you get some kind of evidence that the spider bite (NOT complications from said bite) was the cause of death, you're still spewing garbage.

(+1 post count)
 

BatGirl

MAJOR
Old Timer
Joined
Feb 4, 2008
Messages
139
That's not 'data'. I could write a book and say 'tarantulas are poisonous', but that doesn't make it true just because it's in a book..
You could actually get it published? Bold statement young man (heh, heh)... let's just wait until you do before we blunder much further :rolleyes:

Until you get some kind of evidence that the spider bite (NOT complications from said bite) was the cause of death, you're still spewing garbage.
I've already posted info from medical publications (i.e. non-anecdotal) and from a few books and other places on the subject... but this is not enough for those having an obsessive denial syndrome crisis... for help please see psycological advice given here:
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=48449&page=10 :clap:
 

violentblossom

Arachnoknight
Old Timer
Joined
Jun 7, 2009
Messages
168
people die in the jungles, remote villages, etc. ALL THE TIME
But how can you know this if they were not reported? I'm not saying that is not possible, but if something isn't reported, then it cannot be known for certain.
 

Zoltan

Cult Leader
Old Timer
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
1,465
Extracted from IndMED Banerjee K; Banerjee R; Mukherjee AK; Ghosh D; Kalyan Banerjee; Raghubir Banerjee 120, Apcar Garden, Asansol-713 304
Tarantula bite leads to death and gangrene.
Indian Journal of Dermatology Venereology & Leprology. 1997 Mar-Apr; 63(2): 125-6
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ABSTRACT: Chilobrachys hardwikii-giant black hairy spider bite produced two deaths, one case of gangrene of the foot and urticarial rashes in another person in a remote village of Churulia 30 km from Asansol.
KEYWORDS: Spider Venoms; Gangrene
References: 4
Record Identifier: TB3374
Ok, so has anybody actually read this paper?

Interesting that you can't find it on the homepage of IJDVL: http://www.ijdvl.com/

The citation says 1997 Mar-Apr 63(2) - the contents of this issue are found on the webpage: http://www.ijdvl.com/showBackIssue.asp?issn=0378-6323;year=1997;volume=63;issue=2;month=March-April

Strangely there's no trace of this "tarantula bite death" article!?

P.S.: it hardwicki, not "hardwikii".
 
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BatGirl

MAJOR
Old Timer
Joined
Feb 4, 2008
Messages
139
But how can you know this if they were not reported? I'm not saying that is not possible, but if something isn't reported, then it cannot be known for certain.
...and if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to see or hear it, does it still not happen?:embarrassed:

btw - some were reported, and some were even published - two deaths in india, one in china, etc.

Strangely there's no trace of this "tarantula bite death" article!?
Apparently the website is missing pages 125-126 noted in the extract, for if you go to issue 3 it clearly jumps over these pages (denial conspiracy??). It wouldn't be the first time a website is messed-up - you know software engineers...:rolleyes:

Contact them for the pages if interested in the gory details :( (I just did!)

Then got this today:

From: Devinder Mohan Thappa
Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 10:12 AM
To: ................
Subject: Re: Indian J Dermatol Venereol Leprol query...
Those pages were not scanned and put on web as they did not have useful information. (at least not to detmatologists!)
Dr. DM Thappa,
Editor, IJDVL
On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 2:02 AM, Ms. Jaimie Blackstone, PE <editor@ijdvl.com> wrote:
Name: Ms. Jaimie Blackstone, PE
Email: ...............
looking for pages 125-126 in the Indian Journal of Dermatology Venereology & Leprology. 1997 Mar-Apr; 63(2) which appears to be missing from your website... can you help?
 
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Arachnobrian

Arachnoangel
Old Timer
Joined
Aug 27, 2004
Messages
863
Wow, I can't believe this thread still continues.

My views have not changed with regards to the original title.

However, as this is a "hobby/pet" related question. Perhaps we should only consider "hobby/pet" related bites, and any deaths reported.

So far to date, reading the bite reports on this site, no deaths. Not sure, but it's possible AB bite reports could possibly be most extensive list to date within the hobby.
 
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