Robc bitten by a P.regalis.

[edesign]

Interesting, thanks for the link

It is not a new discovery that pokie venom along with a few other species such as H. maculata and P. murinus can have quite severe effects on some people lasting weeks and even months.

The article mentions the use of steroids and antihistamines for treatment but does not really say which was more effective. Look back over the bite reports and elsewhere in this forum for the above species and you'll find plenty of people who recovered just fine without either of the above substances or professional medical treatment...some in shorter time frames (or about as long, don't recall for sure), some longer.

Another thing is that it says a week later after final treatment the symptoms had abated. Again, the previous bite reports I have read here have had the symptoms resurface weeks later...sometimes more. I am not sure if allergic reactions are able to act in such a manner (initial problems and then recur weeks later).

IgE was elevated 141 KU/L (nl<114).
...
Elevation in serum IgE suggests an allergic response to the venom.

I don't know what regular IgE levels are and have no clue what it even is. The article does not state conclusively that there was an allergic response, merely that it is suggested. I am not saying it is impossible given the above data but I'm not going to buy it without further medical evidence. It also does not mean I would not be concerned if bit by any of the above species Rattlesnakes in addition to other medically significant inverts have toxins whose effects are nasty and not related to allergic responses. Tarantula venom is not very well understood and as far as I know there hasn't been much research done in to pokie venom. Who's to say that it's not a toxin in the venom causing these problems without a histamine response?

Kind of playing devil's advocate here I do still think that this report is far from conclusive without further evidence and additional studies. "Suggests" IS the operative word but that does not make it concrete evidence.

As for caco...you're still relatively new here (not meant in a derogatory way at all but I've been reading his posts for a few years...he's not making this stuff up), I'd say that he is pretty familiar with venom and how it affects him. He's been around that block more times than most here would even want to experience (where's Mike Troll? ) There is nothing wrong with what he suggested as

A) Sometimes people freak out when bit and many of the symptoms they begin showing are mental in origination or as caco said (and this IS medically proven) it can make present symptoms from the toxins even worse.

B) Heat has been medically shown to reduce the pain from centipedes including Scolopendra. Heat is also medically proven to be useful against muscle cramps.

C)

as for drug treatments... i would not suggest taking any over the counter medication for a "serious" envenomation. it is not likely to help you that much and could complicate further medical treatment. aspirin or tylenol (can't remember which) thins your blood, for instance. that could conflict with a later treatment that is needed, possibly. if, gods forfend, a bug has aggressively hemotoxic components to their venom thinning your blood could do crazy stuff!

What part of this are you suggesting does not make sense? :? As I said before, little is really understood about the venom of most centipedes and tarantulas (scorpions it seems are much more studied due to the lethality of some species and the need for antivenins) so before you go trying to fix a bite with severe symptoms yourself you need to know what it is doing to your body. Randomly ingesting medicines is hardly a good idea from a medical standpoint, I think any doctor would also tell you that.

when it seems like my CNS is not being played with i do take alcohol sometimes. it would be better not to, of course... but i do try to limit my risks by only taking it when symptoms are generally local

This does seem to contradict what he just said as alcohol can interact with some medications that may be given later by a medical professional. However he did include the caveat about limiting it to localized symptoms. If symptoms stay local and do not spread after a period of time then chances are you won't need any further medical attention.

Just my two cents

 

[cacoseraph]

if you know what you are doing, you can do whatever you want! my point is that people know virtually nothing about the venom action and still self medicate

i personally don't care if someone dies from being stupid. i am sort of for that thing, in fact. of course, it might have a pretty dramatic affect on the hobby. i only keep local species and G. rosea right now cuz that is what i love most... so i would not really be hurt by increased regulation of exotics... can the rest of you say that?

i think that people love the idea that if they make a mistake and get bit by something nasty they can just take a pill and be safe. that is a very attractive concept. if i thought it was true i would be a LOT more cavalier with testing venoms. however, i do not think it is the case and so i abstain


to be honest, i would probably take Poeci bites if i could be medically monitored and get all my diagnostics back after the ordeal was over. but i just don't have the money for that kind of thing. i would love to test all the centipede venoms that have already messed me up that way. it would be awesome to test venoms that seem to have no affect on me in such a way,too... but again, i lack the funds for that sort of thing. heck, i am geek enough i would love to be medically monitored while doing all sorts of things =P



i'll learn about the IgE thing later on. my plate is pretty full right now and i am at just about the limit of what i can learn on my own... and this is something i want to make sure i get right

 

[jb7741]

you're still relatively new here

Fair enough, but as was pointed out in another thread, relative newness to the site is not a good indicator of knowledge.

Until you have done a bit of research into a subject or have the appropriate education to back up your claims, then one really shouldn't contradict a treatment option.

Of his own accord: "BUT!!!!! i am no doctor. i don't have any college degrees. so... i could be wrong "

My only point is this: Regardless of what you have experienced in the past, either due to idiocy or carelessness, don't presume to think your way is the best. Never assume to give medical advice to people unless you have prefaced your statement with, 'I ain't no doctor, but in my experience......'

Just a thought, again to each his/her own.

 

[cacoseraph]

ah, but i have probably read more about centipede and tarantula envenomations or medical stuff in general than most ppl on the board... and probably more about the two in relation to each other than an even smaller group. the IgE thing is interesting... i will learn all about it. but you want my prediction? it won't prove benadryl is a good prophylactic treatment



ask most of the ppl how much reading they have done and it will probably run to an hour or two at most


there are advantages to being a compulsive reader with a sticky brain (and not just in trivial pursuit and watching jeopardy and cash cab =P )



just for kicks... robc... what did you read about tarantula venom before you got bit? and for my own curiosity... how much reading have you done since?

 

[jb7741]

ah, but i have probably read more about centipede and tarantula envenomations or medical stuff in general than most ppl on the board

Fair enough.


I still refuse to give up my handy-dandy bottle of liquid benedryl that I keep by the old worlders.

I do also have an epi-pen, but I don't think the side effects of the epi would be worth trying it out, regardless of envenomation.

 

[cacoseraph]

ah, the good old epi-pen

when should you stick yourself? no fair googling... you probably aren't going to google when you get bit

 

[jb7741]

when should you stick yourself?

Assuming you have an epipen due to some severe allergies, you want to activate it ASAP after being stung or bitten.

I don't have any known allergies. I happen to have one because I use them in my job. I don't think it would help anyway, but who knows?

 

[cacoseraph]

ah, you might just manage to kill yourself, then

although, if you stick yourself immediately i suspect the epinephrine's action would play out before the most severe affects of the venom hit you, for tarantula and centipede and scorpion stings

epinephrine is an adrenaline precursor. basically when you inject yourself with it you have a big rush of adrenalin which does a variety of things to you


if you stick yourself and stack the affects of adrenalin with the negative affects of the venom you could die when you would not have without self medicating


so... are you going to do some research for yourself or... just guess?




an epi-pen CAN save a person, no doubt... when they are suffering anaphylaxis from a SEVERE, deathly allergic reaction.

 

[jb7741]

if you stick yourself and stack the affects of adrenalin with the negative affects of the venom you could die when you would not have without self medicating

I'm sorry, did you want to scan your medical license so we can see where your coming from?

or

Perhaps a link or two where your proof is coming from.
(A professional link might be nice, not a you tube video or something)

 

[cacoseraph]

it's called a synergistic reaction. look it up yourself

i had other hobbies, you could call medically oriented, before i was into bugs



don't let me caveat fool you.. i don't think i am wrong, either. i am just trying to point out it is a complicated multireaction going on and just popping drugs willy nilly is stupid and just a way to add some chlorine to the shallow end of the gene pool



edit:
tachycardia is noted in a lot of serious tarantula bites... the causative chemicals in the venom could stack with the extreme increase in heart rate that adrenaline gives you to push your heartrate to something truly frightening. look it up yourself prove me wrong

 

[robc]

Wow....this has gotten crazy in here! I think next time I get bit, I'll just slam an energy drink, do a quick shot of vodka, just for the heck of it - and continue on my day. I didn't have any effects at all the next day...maybe I'm lucky, maybe I'm not - I'm sure time will tell.

(and no, I don't need any advice about the energy shot or vodka...LOL).

Continue on...I was never here...

 

[jb7741]

Dang Rob, now you added a whole new potion to the mix, the dreaded booze.

I'm just gonna send Dani a defibrillator, epi, and atropine. That way after your bite, envenomation, bendadryl, shot, energy drink, and muscle relaxers, she can bring you back to life.

Just so long as you make a video of it.;P

 

[robc]

Dang Rob, now you added a whole new potion to the mix, the dreaded booze.

I'm just gonna send Dani a defibrillator, epi, and atropine. That way after your bite, envenomation, bendadryl, shot, energy drink, and muscle relaxers, she can bring you back to life.

Just so long as you make a video of it.;P

Oh you know we'll film the whole thing!! LOL It'd make for a nice tutorial, don't you think? "How to kill yourself by self-medicating"...we can even make it a sticky!!

 

[cacoseraph]

like i said

just chlorinating the shallow end


do try to come up with something valid and reasonable instead of a blind reliance on antihistamines and epinephrine and humor of dubious value, though

 

[jb7741]

I don't think the side effects of the epi would be worth trying it out, regardless of envenomation.

You probably didn't notice this statement I made earlier.

As I said, the side effects from the epi would be such that it would not be worth trying out.

I also said that I didn't think it would help.

No matter, until venom is actually studied in depth, I doubt this arguement will ever be conclusive.

Feel free to send me whatever links you have, but I still don't think it will be resolved in short order.

It's been fun, but I'm moving on.

 

[burmish101]

Dang Rob, now you added a whole new potion to the mix, the dreaded booze.

I'm just gonna send Dani a defibrillator, epi, and atropine. That way after your bite, envenomation, bendadryl, shot, energy drink, and muscle relaxers, she can bring you back to life.

Just so long as you make a video of it.;P

Alcohol was once the only treatment for snake bites a long time ago in the u.s. Whether or not it is documented they wouldnt have used it if it didnt help(probably). At least it would numb the pain and make you forget about the bite, where as most people freak the heck out and raise their heart rate ect. I also dont think mixing uppers with downers a good thing either. Yes im talking about drugs but some venoms increase or decrease heart speed dont they? Arent epi pens used for snake bites, I havent heard of its use on inverts yet. I prefer to only take benedryl when I had a severe bite, and still get the shakes occationally 6 years after lol, I wouldnt trust myself taking anything other than that, odds are it wont kill you in the first place(speaking of spiders/scorps).

 

[cacoseraph]

phlebotomy also used to see widespread use for a truly staggering range of maladies.

 

[edesign]

Fair enough, but as was pointed out in another thread, relative newness to the site is not a good indicator of knowledge.

You misinterpreted me...I said it because being new to the site I highly doubt you have been keeping up with the posts here over the past five years. I was insinuating that you aren't fully familiar with caco's escapades or what he knows and were arguing that his opinion was wrong. He's tried explaining it a few times to which apparently no avail because he doesn't have med credentials? Some people read and learn in their free time, no tuition fees involved Does it make them experts? No, but generally they are a lot more familiar with certain subjects than your everday joe.

Until you have done a bit of research into a subject or have the appropriate education to back up your claims, then one really shouldn't contradict a treatment option.

You're right, how stupid of me to make an observation based on the fact you could be doing more harm than good and that because one published medical report on a specific species of T suggests that there was a histamine reaction because of one elevated reading (doesn't say HOW elevated) and the fact that after the patient came back a week later to obtain treatment again (steroids AND antihistamine) she was apparently fine yet there are plenty of reports indicating the symptoms can reappear weeks or months later so who's to say she was "cured" by either drug but if so, was it the combo or one more specifically than the other? Yes, how could I be so dumb as to take it with a large grain of salt given the unknowns and variables. (run-on sentence intended)

Of his own accord: "BUT!!!!! i am no doctor. i don't have any college degrees. so... i could be wrong "

My only point is this: Regardless of what you have experienced in the past, either due to idiocy or carelessness, don't presume to think your way is the best. Never assume to give medical advice to people unless you have prefaced your statement with, 'I ain't no doctor, but in my experience......'

That's akin to not wearing a seat belt because there's that slight possibility it will be the kind of crash where being thrown clear will save your life. Is it a good idea to use that as your conventional, everyday use (rather non-use) of a seat belt? Most cases it's a resounding no...you are better off not making the potential for death or serious injury worse by applying poor logic.

Example: "Gee, I just got injected with a bunch of T venom but I have no idea how it works or what it does to me and hopefully I don't panic causing psychosomatic reactions creating false symptoms or exacerbating existing ones. I think I'll just medicate myself with...eenie, meenie, miney, mo...THIS ONE! I hope it plays nicely with whatever is already happening from the venom. I'm feeling lucky so I'm gonna go buy some lottery tickets too!"

 

[Protectyaaaneck]

I have an EpiPen for when I have severe allergic reactions. I'm allergic to peanuts and was allergic to most everything else growing up, until I hit puberty and then I grew out of most of them. For some reason I see no use in jabbing yourself with an EpiPen after being bit by a T. EpiPens are made to open up your airways during anaphylactic shock. I don't think T venom is going to cause anaphylaxis.

I think cacoseraph is right, you shouldn't self medicate if you don't know what in the hell you are putting into your body.

 

[the nature boy]

Rob: unless Caco wishes to provide a bit more detailed evidence of his extensive medical research

You guys need to lay off Andrew. :evil: Jesus, he posts anything and he becomes an immediate lightening rod. You know what--if someone is so stupid that they take what someone says on the boards to be gospel then they deserve whatever comes their way. Personally, I enjoy reading different perspectives, even ones I don't fully agree with. And, a lot of what Andrew says is dead on the money.