Raising feeder mealworms for darkling beetle display tank?

[Chimera]

When I say first larva, I mean the first one's the adults produce.

Yeah the substrate should be kept dry, I was meaning that the substrate will absorb moisture from the food just like @Dave Jay said. I just have a bad tendency to over explain things that should be simple, and under explain things that need more clarification.

Utah... yeah you can put them outside.

I keep my Darklings in a Critter Keeper and use the red lamp. The one I use is this:
https://www.chewy.com/exo-terra-infrared-basking-reptile/dp/123928?utm_source=google-product&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=f&utm_content=Exo Terra&utm_term=&gclid=Cj0KCQjw5-TXBRCHARIsANLixNzlLFnPe5EQdkn4OiFlCAAmESjr74RVYiLgn38v8fL5WP6WnuPzYj8aAhEREALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds
I'v never had an issue with the Keeper melting but I keep it about half a foot above the keeper.
Also, I was in Petsmart today and looked at the large Keeper in person, and I think that I was wrong about the size of heat mat. Go with one size smaller. (4w, 5 gallon)

And yeah the millet would be just fine! I didn't know they made that... gonna have to look into that for my Bearded Dragons.

Okay, some questions because I really don't know much about lighting... Do I need to buy special ceramic lamp for a bulb like that? If I do, how do I mount it so it's not just resting on the top? The lamps I see at the pet store don't have stands. And is there a reason you do red light? I understand that's better for nocturnal viewing, but I'm guessing you don't leave it on 24/7. I think I would prefer just a normal-colored heat bulb if it's not detrimental to the animals.

And okay, awesome It'll be pretty inexpensive with such a small space to fill. So... like three inches deep?

I know that a dish sounds more appealing to the eyes, but I would just go with placing the food on the substrate's surface. The worms will surface for food if necessary.

Actually, mealworms are from a different genus (Tenebrio), so I think crossbreeding would be very unlikely. Not to mention the massive size difference.
With a rich abundance of food and proper protein supplements, it is probably possible to keep both together. Though I think that for this plan to work well, you would be better off with a larger tank so that there is plenty of room for the two species to co-exist. Mealworms will reproduce significantly faster as well, so they may need to be culled every now and again if the superworms don't keep them in check. Also, the larva may be difficult to differentiate at a glance, it is possible. They will all start at a similar size and color, but superworms will start to turn dark brown/black toward their head and thorax. And after a month or so the difference will be quite obvious to you. Especially since superworms can max out at 2 inches long while a mealworm is lucky to hit 1 inch. Ultimately though, I think that putting the two species together, while possible, would demand more monitoring from you. If you're game for that, go for it! Embrace the challenge!

Also, you asked somewhere up above how to know when superworms need to be separated for pupation. Basically, just watch out for particullarly large/long worms. Pick them out and seclude them for a week. If they have mostly stopped moving and are in a "C" shape, they are ready to pupate and will do so in a few days. If they are still moving around like normal or shed their skin but do not turn into a pupa, they need more time to grow. Using this method, you will get almost no casualties. In my time I've only ever had two.

Oh, okay. Honestly, I'm happy just working with superworms. If I want to try something different in the future, I might go for mealworms; but for now, I don't want to bite off more than I can chew!

What would you consider large/long? Measurement-wise? I mean I'm planning on purchasing large ones to start out with, so would I be good separating them pretty much immediately? And if some aren't ready, I'll put them back into the food cup for a week or so and then try again?

 

[Beedrill]

Okay, some questions because I really don't know much about lighting... Do I need to buy special ceramic lamp for a bulb like that? If I do, how do I mount it so it's not just resting on the top? The lamps I see at the pet store don't have stands. And is there a reason you do red light? I understand that's better for nocturnal viewing, but I'm guessing you don't leave it on 24/7. I think I would prefer just a normal-colored heat bulb if it's not detrimental to the animals.

And okay, awesome It'll be pretty inexpensive with such a small space to fill. So... like three inches deep?



Oh, okay. Honestly, I'm happy just working with superworms. If I want to try something different in the future, I might go for mealworms; but for now, I don't want to bite off more than I can chew!

What would you consider large/long? Measurement-wise? I mean I'm planning on purchasing large ones to start out with, so would I be good separating them pretty much immediately? And if some aren't ready, I'll put them back into the food cup for a week or so and then try again?

Well for the light, they usually have lamp stands that you can buy there at the pet store, but if not, they should have them at Walmart or some other large superstore. Alternatively, you can just hang the lamp from the wall or ceiling depending on the location of the tank.
Now I actually do leave my red lamp on 24/7. That's actually the reason I use red. Our house if fairly cold at all times so the heat needs to be constant. However, if your home is usually in the low 70's, it would be fine to turn it off at night. The other reason I use red is that most insects cannot see red, with the exception of Lepidopterans (Butterflies and Moths). Also, you don't need a special lamp either. I use the metal lamps that they sell in the hardware department of Walmart because they are $10 cheaper. I'd definitely go with whatever you are most comfortable with though.

Yeah, three inches of substrate ought to work just fine. Mine only have like a fourth of that.

Well as for what constitutes a Large/Long superworm, I'd say that around 2 inches long is a fair estimate. I've had smaller ones pupate as well though.
And I know that this isn't an exact science but sometimes you open up the container and there is just a Goliath worm sitting there staring back at you and you think, "Woah that's a big superworm!"
When I started up my colony, I asked the lady who was helping me at Petsmart to see if she could find me an old container from the back that had particularly large worms inside. She was nice enough to deliver, so you may want to try something similar at your local store.

 

[Chimera]

Well for the light, they usually have lamp stands that you can buy there at the pet store, but if not, they should have them at Walmart or some other large superstore. Alternatively, you can just hang the lamp from the wall or ceiling depending on the location of the tank.
Now I actually do leave my red lamp on 24/7. That's actually the reason I use red. Our house if fairly cold at all times so the heat needs to be constant. However, if your home is usually in the low 70's, it would be fine to turn it off at night. The other reason I use red is that most insects cannot see red, with the exception of Lepidopterans (Butterflies and Moths). Also, you don't need a special lamp either. I use the metal lamps that they sell in the hardware department of Walmart because they are $10 cheaper. I'd definitely go with whatever you are most comfortable with though.

Yeah, three inches of substrate ought to work just fine. Mine only have like a fourth of that.

Well as for what constitutes a Large/Long superworm, I'd say that around 2 inches long is a fair estimate. I've had smaller ones pupate as well though.
And I know that this isn't an exact science but sometimes you open up the container and there is just a Goliath worm sitting there staring back at you and you think, "Woah that's a big superworm!"
When I started up my colony, I asked the lady who was helping me at Petsmart to see if she could find me an old container from the back that had particularly large worms inside. She was nice enough to deliver, so you may want to try something similar at your local store.

Unfortunately, I'll be keeping the tank in my bedroom, and I definitely don't want a light on all night. I don't know if the house would be warm enough without one overnight though- it can get down to 68 F. So I guess that leaves a ceramic heat emitter or a pad. A heat emitter would make me nervous, just because I know they can get very hot and the top of the cage will be plastic. So that leaves a heat pad. Do you happen to know of one that is a bit cheaper than the Zoo Med one you linked earlier? I'm assuming it needs a thermostat, so add that on, and heating alone gets pretty pricey Would a nightly drop to high 60's be harmful/fatal, or would it just slow down reproduction a bit?

And ooh, great idea! I'll probably be getting them from Petsmart, so I'll definitely ask about an older container.

 

[Beedrill]

A drop down into the high 60's at night will not likely have a huge affect on them. I know for sure that the larva will be just fine, and I suspect that the adults would still be capable of laying eggs during the day. Incubation of the eggs may take a little bit longer, but that's about it.
You can use any heat pad that will keep the temperature where you need it too be. Personally, I agree that the Zoomed one's are overpriced. I know that other places sell heat pads, mostly for muscle aches and pains in humans, but I can't really recommend a brand or anything. Some actually have thermostats built in, so you may be able to hit two birds with one stone in that regard.

 

[PidderPeets]

They bounce?! Well now I know the first thing I'll be doing with one then So just to clarify, even like the cheap water beads from a dollar store are okay? (Like these? https://www.dollartree.com/Floral-Hydration-Clear-Gel-Beads-11-4-oz-Jars/p335525/index.pro)

They aren't as bouncy as legitimate bouncy balls, but it's still enough to be super satisfying And those ones you linked should be alright. I buy the ones that are still dry and just hydrate what I need. That way, I actually have a huge amount, but it's not taking up the space that fully hydrated ones would. This is exactly, what I bought, but I bought a 2oz bag instead of 4oz: https://www.walmart.com/ip/4-ouces-Clear-Jelly-BeadZ-water-beads/973577709

They come dry in a tiny baggy, and you just soak them in water for a few hours and you're good to go. It doesn't sound like much, but that 2oz bag I bought might honestly last me a year.

Would it be better to put it on the bottom or the side?

I would hesitate to put a heat mat directly on the enclosure at all, but if you go for that route, I would put it on the side, not the bottom. If the beetles or larvae were to burrow down to the bottom because they were too hot (I'm not certain that these guys will, but I know lots of animals do, including many inverts), they'd unintentionally get even closer to the source of warmth and wind up roasting themselves. I used a hermit crab heat mat when most of my tarantulas were still slings, and what I did was put their containers into a bigger container, and put the heat mat on the side of the outer container. That method provides warmth, but doesn't give the inverts access to direct contact with the heat source, thus eliminating the possibility of them accidentally cooking themselves. I have no experience with heat lamps, other than I know they aren't safe for tarantulas. Lol

Throwing them outside would be a good way to use them! Maybe I'll sell the extras as feeders, but first I'll just have to get a feel for how many extra I'll have.

I would also say that I think throwing them outside under certain conditions would be fine, but I would literally just toss them into the back yard. I would place them in a shallow pan that they cannot climb out of and place the pan in an elevated area where birds are likely to see the worms wriggling around. This way, you ensure that the worms will not make it to adult hood and continue to reproduce outside their native range.

I just want to specify that I meant killing the superworms before leaving them outside. Although putting live ones in a dish they can't escape from and that can't be knocked over by hungry birds would probably be okay. I would just personally opt for killing them first because of the odd chance of them escaping and reaching adulthood. Animals would still eat them if you killed the superworms first

They will eat almost anything. I even had one chew it's way out of a solo cup once.

It's funny you mention that! In my searching online a bit to help out with this thread, I came across a quick little note that said mealworms can actually be raised exclusively on polystyrene (styrofoam, solo cups, etc), and can therefore turn it into organic, biodegradable material! I looked into it further and found a full article on it: http://livingearthsystems.com/mealworms-compost-styrofoam/

It's possible that superworms might be capable of the same

 

[Chimera]

A drop down into the high 60's at night will not likely have a huge affect on them. I know for sure that the larva will be just fine, and I suspect that the adults would still be capable of laying eggs during the day. Incubation of the eggs may take a little bit longer, but that's about it.
You can use any heat pad that will keep the temperature where you need it too be. Personally, I agree that the Zoomed one's are overpriced. I know that other places sell heat pads, mostly for muscle aches and pains in humans, but I can't really recommend a brand or anything. Some actually have thermostats built in, so you may be able to hit two birds with one stone in that regard.

Okay, good. In that case, I'll just go with a heat lamp (especially since I purchased the tank I'll use today and it has a metal mesh lid). Would something like this work (the 75w one)? https://www.petsmart.com/reptile/en...nse-basking-spot-light-14809.html?cgid=500110 They don't need UVB, do they?

They aren't as bouncy as legitimate bouncy balls, but it's still enough to be super satisfying And those ones you linked should be alright. I buy the ones that are still dry and just hydrate what I need. That way, I actually have a huge amount, but it's not taking up the space that fully hydrated ones would. This is exactly, what I bought, but I bought a 2oz bag instead of 4oz: https://www.walmart.com/ip/4-ouces-Clear-Jelly-BeadZ-water-beads/973577709

They come dry in a tiny baggy, and you just soak them in water for a few hours and you're good to go. It doesn't sound like much, but that 2oz bag I bought might honestly last me a year.

Ha, I'll have to try it! And okay, great.

I would hesitate to put a heat mat directly on the enclosure at all, but if you go for that route, I would put it on the side, not the bottom. If the beetles or larvae were to burrow down to the bottom because they were too hot (I'm not certain that these guys will, but I know lots of animals do, including many inverts), they'd unintentionally get even closer to the source of warmth and wind up roasting themselves. I used a hermit crab heat mat when most of my tarantulas were still slings, and what I did was put their containers into a bigger container, and put the heat mat on the side of the outer container. That method provides warmth, but doesn't give the inverts access to direct contact with the heat source, thus eliminating the possibility of them accidentally cooking themselves. I have no experience with heat lamps, other than I know they aren't safe for tarantulas. Lol

Thanks for the info! I'll keep that in mind if I ever end up using a heating pad, but for now I think I'll go with a heat lamp

I just want to specify that I meant killing the superworms before leaving them outside. Although putting live ones in a dish they can't escape from and that can't be knocked over by hungry birds would probably be okay. I would just personally opt for killing them first because of the odd chance of them escaping and reaching adulthood. Animals would still eat them if you killed the superworms first

Hmm, okay. Maybe I'll combine feeding the birds with the freezer method @Beedrill suggested!

It's funny you mention that! In my searching online a bit to help out with this thread, I came across a quick little note that said mealworms can actually be raised exclusively on polystyrene (styrofoam, solo cups, etc), and can therefore turn it into organic, biodegradable material! I looked into it further and found a full article on it: http://livingearthsystems.com/mealworms-compost-styrofoam/

It's possible that superworms might be capable of the same

That's incredible! :wideyed: What a clever idea!

Speaking of research, I purchased my worms today and hope to get them separated tonight or tomorrow. I'm planning on giving a third of the larva the food they came, a third with no food at all, and a third with wheat bran (which I'm ending up using as substrate because I got a bigger tank than planned, and it's nice and cheap so I can provide enough of it). I'm going to take lots of notes and work on the Darkling Mansion while they get closer to pupation!

 

[Beedrill]

I just want to specify that I meant killing the superworms before leaving them outside. Although putting live ones in a dish they can't escape from and that can't be knocked over by hungry birds would probably be okay. I would just personally opt for killing them first because of the odd chance of them escaping and reaching adulthood. Animals would still eat them if you killed the superworms first

It's funny you mention that! In my searching online a bit to help out with this thread, I came across a quick little note that said mealworms can actually be raised exclusively on polystyrene (styrofoam, solo cups, etc), and can therefore turn it into organic, biodegradable material! I looked into it further and found a full article on it: http://livingearthsystems.com/mealworms-compost-styrofoam/

It's possible that superworms might be capable of the same

Oh right...freeze them, THEN put them outside... Now there's an idea! It never even occurred to me. That's what sharing ideas is for i guess. XD

Also, the fact that these guys can EAT STYROFOAM blew my friggin mind! That's crazy!
I want to go and buy mealworms specifically to eat styrofoam now...

 

[Chimera]

Oh right...freeze them, THEN put them outside... Now there's an idea! It never even occurred to me. That's what sharing ideas is for i guess. XD

Also, the fact that these guys can EAT STYROFOAM blew my friggin mind! That's crazy!
I want to go and buy mealworms specifically to eat styrofoam now...

Ha, yep! Good thing people are sharing their ideas too, or I wouldn't know what the heck I was doing!

Did you see the link of the bulb I posted?

Also, mealworms are now officially metal. "First, styrofoam. Then the world!" *evil worm laughter* Plus, I bet no one else has "feeding styrofoam to mealworms" on their resume

 

[Beedrill]

Oh sorry, forgot to comment on that bulb. Yeah that would work just fine. Something else to consider is that you can get a 75w incandescent bulb from Walmart at a fourth of the price that they'll want for this one at Petsmart. Branding is everything...

I also want to know what "evil worm laughter" sounds like. For some reason,when I read that, it sent a sinister chill down my spine. Could it be that we are on to their plans at last?
I don't know man, but that thing... it scares me.

 

[Stardisk]

Hey Chimera, I was helping you in the flowerbeetle thread. Nice to see you found a species to keep as pets. I hope everything works out well and you have a lot of fun figuring everything out. Please post pics when you do, am curious how it turns out.

 

[Chimera]

Oh sorry, forgot to comment on that bulb. Yeah that would work just fine. Something else to consider is that you can get a 75w incandescent bulb from Walmart at a fourth of the price that they'll want for this one at Petsmart. Branding is everything...

I also want to know what "evil worm laughter" sounds like. For some reason,when I read that, it sent a sinister chill down my spine. Could it be that we are on to their plans at last?
I don't know man, but that thing... it scares me.

Oh, good point! Thanks! I'll be sure to check at Walmart.

And I don't know what evil worm laughter sounds like, but now that I've dealt with those feisty little worms myself, I'm quite sure it's a thing. I will try to recruit my worms to become double agents and help me work against the Supreme Worm!!!

Hey Chimera, I was helping you in the flowerbeetle thread. Nice to see you found a species to keep as pets. I hope everything works out well and you have a lot of fun figuring everything out. Please post pics when you do, am curious how it turns out.

Hi Stardisk! Thanks for all your help with the other thread I hope things work out too- I'm pretty optimistic! I will definitely post pics when I have a display tank up and running, maybe even just as soon as I finish setting up. Those spoiled little worms are getting a 20 gallon long tank, four inches of wheat bran, a sizeable "garden" of fake plants, and we mustn't forget the mini stone Mayan temple. I'm having lots of fun getting everything ready

 

[coniontises]

@Chimera

I don't wish to ruin the party and get into one of those infamous Arachnoboards fights, but there are a lot of internet myths on mealworms and "super worms". These eventually work their way up the food chain and end up in reputable-looking sites like zoo factsheets and entomology hubs.

1. Common mealworm: Tenebrio molitor. "Superworm": Zophobas morio.Both are in family Tenebrionidae and thus both are darkling beetles. Adults of both can fly, but are extremely reluctant. I have seen Zophobas take off and hypothesize it only happens under great stress.

2: the Zophobas cup pupation business is only partially true. Yes, they will pupate in empty cups, and yes, isolation is important for pupation. However, darkness is not required for success. More importantly: small barebottom cups and lack of food are not needed either. I have repeatedly gotten pupation in big cages and in cups w food. In big cages the larvae dug a shallow oval pit and prepupated inside. Big cages are not efficient, though. I suggest using medium-sized cups with plenty of burrowing room, food, and water to decrease deaths.

3. Darklings as a group are generally long-lived (the 3 to 15 yrs sometimes cited is certainly false for Z and T adults). My pet Coniontis, a garden sp only a cm long, has lived over 6 months and survived from summer til this spring. According to Orin McMonigle (expert, and Elytra&Antenna on forums)'s Ultimate Guide to Breeding Beetles, adult Zophobas typically don't last longer than 6 months. However, many of the adults I kept outlived this by quite some time (around 8 or 9 I think) without displaying major senility past the 6 mth mark. I speculate that many breeders keep adults in bad condition, killing them rapidly.

5. My Zophobas would even lay eggs in tissue paper. One female makes a ton of eggs, and they will lay and hatch properly at room temperature. Population control is tricky unless you isolate adults or kill larvae

More typing on the way

 

[coniontises]

(gasp)

6. The styrofoam eating isn't a myth. I eat technical research papers for lunch, and these are much more trustable than plain English websites.

7. On the "darklings are fun to watch": This stems from McMonigle's book above. The book makes it seem like he is talking about all darklings, but I have found adult Zophobas rather inactive and Hisserdude (famous for his immense darkling + roach hoard, also a bugguide editor) has informed me that forest darklings (Zophobas, Alobates, etc) are in general quite lethargic compared to the hilarious, energetic desert ones. Z larvae are fun to watch as they defoliate lettuce and dart in and out to feed on fruit though.

8. Coconut fiber indeed a good choice, says expert Kyle @ roachcrossing. It lacks nutrition though






General summary: Don't starve your Zophobas for pupation. Adults live very long but are inactive. I kept mine without water, except for daily vegs and a moist corner in the adults' dirt cage.


Cheers and good luck =)

 

[coniontises]

And a few more things

Freezing may be useless for Tenebrio; it is a temperate sp and probably immune. Some reputable groups report that freezing is a poor idea for killing non-ice-tolerant insects (arthropods might be conscious) as well, so I wouldn't risk it. Getting eaten by a vertebrate is probably better

Make sure that vegs and fruits don't get dragged under and turn moldy when you aren't looking; I also agree that screen lids are important (most darkling species need good ventilation).

Adult Zophobas will show abnormal behavior (such as trying to hide under each other, forming large heaps) if suitable things to hide in are not present. They are reluctant to burrow so I recommend something lightweight and slightly curved. I suspect egg cartons' gaps are too big, though.

 

[Vladaz1]

 

[Chimera]

@Chimera

I don't wish to ruin the party and get into one of those infamous Arachnoboards fights, but there are a lot of internet myths on mealworms and "super worms". These eventually work their way up the food chain and end up in reputable-looking sites like zoo factsheets and entomology hubs.

1. Common mealworm: Tenebrio molitor. "Superworm": Zophobas morio.Both are in family Tenebrionidae and thus both are darkling beetles. Adults of both can fly, but are extremely reluctant. I have seen Zophobas take off and hypothesize it only happens under great stress.

2: the Zophobas cup pupation business is only partially true. Yes, they will pupate in empty cups, and yes, isolation is important for pupation. However, darkness is not required for success. More importantly: small barebottom cups and lack of food are not needed either. I have repeatedly gotten pupation in big cages and in cups w food. In big cages the larvae dug a shallow oval pit and prepupated inside. Big cages are not efficient, though. I suggest using medium-sized cups with plenty of burrowing room, food, and water to decrease deaths.

3. Darklings as a group are generally long-lived (the 3 to 15 yrs sometimes cited is certainly false for Z and T adults). My pet Coniontis, a garden sp only a cm long, has lived over 6 months and survived from summer til this spring. According to Orin McMonigle (expert, and Elytra&Antenna on forums)'s Ultimate Guide to Breeding Beetles, adult Zophobas typically don't last longer than 6 months. However, many of the adults I kept outlived this by quite some time (around 8 or 9 I think) without displaying major senility past the 6 mth mark. I speculate that many breeders keep adults in bad condition, killing them rapidly.

5. My Zophobas would even lay eggs in tissue paper. One female makes a ton of eggs, and they will lay and hatch properly at room temperature. Population control is tricky unless you isolate adults or kill larvae

More typing on the way

(gasp)

6. The styrofoam eating isn't a myth. I eat technical research papers for lunch, and these are much more trustable than plain English websites.

7. On the "darklings are fun to watch": This stems from McMonigle's book above. The book makes it seem like he is talking about all darklings, but I have found adult Zophobas rather inactive and Hisserdude (famous for his immense darkling + roach hoard, also a bugguide editor) has informed me that forest darklings (Zophobas, Alobates, etc) are in general quite lethargic compared to the hilarious, energetic desert ones. Z larvae are fun to watch as they defoliate lettuce and dart in and out to feed on fruit though.

8. Coconut fiber indeed a good choice, says expert Kyle @ roachcrossing. It lacks nutrition though






General summary: Don't starve your Zophobas for pupation. Adults live very long but are inactive. I kept mine without water, except for daily vegs and a moist corner in the adults' dirt cage.


Cheers and good luck =)

And a few more things

Freezing may be useless for Tenebrio; it is a temperate sp and probably immune. Some reputable groups report that freezing is a poor idea for killing non-ice-tolerant insects (arthropods might be conscious) as well, so I wouldn't risk it. Getting eaten by a vertebrate is probably better

Make sure that vegs and fruits don't get dragged under and turn moldy when you aren't looking; I also agree that screen lids are important (most darkling species need good ventilation).

Adult Zophobas will show abnormal behavior (such as trying to hide under each other, forming large heaps) if suitable things to hide in are not present. They are reluctant to burrow so I recommend something lightweight and slightly curved. I suspect egg cartons' gaps are too big, though.

All feedback is welcome! Thank you so much for all the info. It clears up a lot of things. I actually ended up not doing the project for multiple reasons, and I'm heading in a whip spider direction now.

However, I will always find beetles fascinating and hope to get a few in the future. By the "energetic desert ones", do you mean the death-feigners?

 

[coniontises]

Yes, but also Eleodes too.


Hisserdude also said that Embaphion was quite active too