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Pokies going higher in price?

Discussion in 'Tarantula Chat' started by rosehaired1979, Feb 8, 2004.

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    Hey all I was wondering if anyone has any insight on why the pokies like the P.Miranda and the P.subfusa is going up?? The reason why I asked because I was talking to Joel from SSW and he said the next import of P.Mirandas are gonna be higher than this batch that was in the US
     
  2. metallica

    metallica Arachnoking Old Timer

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    could it be that the demand is higher then the amount of animals offered? how many people do you know that breed these?
     
  3. Code Monkey

    Code Monkey Arachnoemperor Old Timer

    I would say Eddie almost hit it on the nose. Of those two species mentioned, subfusca is the only one I know of being bred in the US and, so far, not with very much success. They are coming into the US market almost exclusively as European imports and that's a limited supply. The other thing which is affecting prices, though, is the Euro is gaining strength against the US dollar. When the exchange rate changes, so don't the prices we pay to get things from Europe change.
     
  4. Botar

    Botar Arachnoprince Old Timer

    As already mentioned, supply/demand has a great deal to do with it. P. subfusca are wholesaling at or above their previous retail price. This is apparently due to the fact that most of the sacs that have been produced have apparently not survived both in the US and Europe. I have very little first hand knowledge of these events, but that is what I have heard from those who do know.

    I will be receiving my pokie shipments some time this week and next and hope to have them on my site shortly afterwards.

    Botar
     
  5. Crotalus

    Crotalus Arachnoking Old Timer

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    Or something like this...

    Few eggsacks hatched - high price
    Many eggsacks hatched - lower price
    Colorful spider - higher price
    Dull looking spider - lower price
    Rare species - high price
    Common species - lower price

    /Lelle
     
  6. phormingochilus

    phormingochilus Arachnoangel Old Timer

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    Re: Or something like this...

    And equally important

    Few spiderlings per batch - high price
    Many spiderlings per batch - lower price

    Poecilotheria subfusca, miranda, metallica etc.:

    Colourful and ornamental = big hype

    Hard to breed = few CB animals for sale - adult WC animals pricey!

    Newly introduced to the hobby = Few breeding groups, partial monopoly, combined with few CB animals for sale - rare in the hobby - adult WC animals pricey!

    Few spiderlings per batch = pretty constant high price level can be maintained

    High demand = Supplies are low - prices can be kept high

    And last but not least Pokies are "in" for the moment.

    All this produces pricey animals.

    Søren
     
  7. Code Monkey

    Code Monkey Arachnoemperor Old Timer

    Re: Re: Or something like this...

    This is a general rule of the tarantula market, though. It's why you can get A. geniculata for less than $10 at times even though it's an absolutely spectacular spider. However, doesn't really have anything to do with why certain Poecilotheria are going up in price.

    Miranda was certainly hyped, hyped to the point of lunacy for a pokie that doesn't look much different than many cheaper species. Conversely, I don't know that you could overhype something like P. metallica entering the market (although you can certainly price it outside of what I can bring myself to pay), and subfusca I've never noticed any hype for at all. I mean, I think subfusca is an outstanding looking species and dropped a fair chunk of money on picking up some from this last shipment, but I came to covet them all on my own.

    All true but still unrelated to their price increase.

    This statement is why I felt like replying. How exactly are pokies in (or "in")? From what I can tell, they've always been very popular with a certain niche segment of the hobby and seem to inspire a lot of loyalty. Conversely, they are actually pretty intimidating to newer keepers because of their size, speed, and reputation for strong venom. They're also completely different than what most people are used to thinking of as a tarantula. I can't really say I've ever seen them as something faddish, particularly in a hobby where most people seem to be pretty independent and particular about their likes and dislikes (we'll ignore the people who hold the monthly poll to decide what to buy next ;)). Certainly the introduction of P. metallica to the hobby has drawn more attention to this fascinating group of spiders but how is it that you can compare their popularity to something "in"? Did people stop keeping classic genera like Avicularia, Brachypelma, and Grammostola when I wasn't looking or something?

    Not arguing, just sort of tyring to figure out why you would call them an "in" thing? It seems to me that they're popularity may be increasing because of better exposure and better availability of some of the more exotic looking ones. Assuming they become more popular within the larger hobby while maintaining a more or less fixed supply that would explain higher prices and yet I'm not convinced the total percentage of people keeping Poecilotheria is experiencing any sort of sudden upturn (but I could be wrong, I'm just giving my impression). In my mind, if somebody is paying $100 and up for a single sling of any variety it had better be for a more personal reason than tarantula fashion.
     
  8. esmoot

    esmoot Arachnobaron Old Timer

    I really had not thought of it before but it does seem like in the past 2 months or so they have been more popular. No, they are not selling like the classics you mentioned but more people seem to be getting their first Pokies and realizing they are not monsters.
     
  9. Code Monkey

    Code Monkey Arachnoemperor Old Timer

    I'm not seeing this phenomenon, maybe a dealer could chime in with their much better observations, but it seems that there are always people getting their first pokies.

    If you want an example, look at me. When I got back into collecting my background was as a longterm keeper of a few specimens of some of the typical petstore genera (Avicularia, Brachypelma, Grammostola, Phormictopus). I'd never really given much thought or attention to what else was out there and my initial new purchases were all about the Avics, the Brachys, and the Grammostola along with some of the new New Worlders that had become common since I was last buying anything such as Acanthoscurria and Nhandu.

    But, right from the beginning of following the online community I was exposed to Poecilotheria, Pterinochilus, Haplopelma, etc.; there was literally a whole set of continents' worth of T types that I was unfamiliar with and, initially, unwilling to get but still willing to learn about and study on.

    You look at pics, you read posts, you check out books, you visit petshops and shows, you learn. And maybe something peaks your curiosity, maybe something doesn't. So not quite a year and a half ago I got my first old worlders. Then around 6 months ago I got my first Poecilotheria. Was I following a *new* trend, or just the natural progression of a hobbyist becoming more familiar with what's out there to be enjoyed? I think it's the latter, and I think it's pretty typical. If you're noticing some new 2 month old pattern maybe it's because your own interest is peaking and that makes you more likely to notice this in people who would have previously flown under your radar. Or maybe I'm way off :) I'd like to see if the dealers are experiencing significantly larger sales or not.
     
  10. tarantulakeeper

    tarantulakeeper Arachnoknight Old Timer

    I think one thing that has made them more popular recently is the selection available.
    I wish I had some old price lists lying around. I bought my first two pokies from Rick Blauman in November of '98, for $25 each. I bought a regalis and a fasciata. I still have the regalis, a beautiful female, but lost the fasciata in my heater massacre. I don't remember there being many other species readily available. I vaguely remember rufilata and ornata but not pedersoni, striata, subfusca, etc. Once you've raised a female to adult size you just have to have more. I have a couple of all except for just one miranda and no metallica (boohoo). I think its pretty neat that you can still buy one inch poecs for $25.

    John
     
  11. Crotalus

    Crotalus Arachnoking Old Timer

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    Re: Re: Re: Or something like this...



    I dont know if any poke is "going up" - the hard-to-get pokes are still pricy while regalis - formosa etc are cheap. genics were once a newly introduced species and very expensive. Then a bunch of 1000 slings eggsacks were hatched out and the prices dropped dramaticly. This wont happen in the same extent with pokes because they dont have 1000 slings in a sac.

    Hyped because it was a hard-to-get species, more then how it looks. Metallica is both, hard-to-get and the look. A remember the same thing (still in another price range) when lividum or cyaneopubescens hit the hobby - same craze for them. A hype.
    Subfusca is not bred much so they still are pricy , and hyped. With hyped I dont mean they are ugly or any negative - they are in demand and sought after.

    Increase? Maybe over there, not here. The hard-to-find pokes are pricy, the common ones cheap.
    If theres a price increase over there it can be because of many are into getting more and more species of pokes right now. A hype of this genus.
    So it have everything to do with the prices.

    Atleast as far as I have seen more hobbyists are "specializing" in this genus - and more hobbyists that been around a while are getting more and more species of the genus so I think you can say they are "in".

    No one stop keeping other genuses but some genus are more or less popular in certain times. We had Xenesthis, Brachypelma and Chromatopelma or Haplopelma craze before.

    See above.

    More species available makes a more demand for the genus in whole, esp. when the spiders are striking pretty in many cases. We have seen that for a while now. And who knows what will happen when Smith release his poke book...

    /Lelle
     
  12. Code Monkey

    Code Monkey Arachnoemperor Old Timer

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Or something like this...

    The "big three", metallica, subfusca, and miranda are going to be more expensive this season than they were last go round. The metallica's are much smaller but selling for as much or more than their first batch over here depending on how many middle men it goes through before your friendly dealer can get it to you. Miranda seems to be going for the same or a hair more. And subfusca is really through the roof - I saw subfusca going anywhere from $90-$125 last year, they're around $170 for this last shipment.

    On a related tangent, is 'hype' used differently in Europe than in the US? Hype typically means a sense of excitement or anticipation built up around something as a result of advertising or *passing* fad and usually it usually is used as a negative. Both you and Soren used it in regards to the pokie popularity but, again, not really seeing hype with the exception of when miranda entered the US market last year.
     
  13. reverendsterlin

    reverendsterlin Arachnoprince Old Timer

    glad I got my order in, this is what I've seen on one site.
    P. rufilata - Red Slate ......now. $60 was $40 in December
    P. pedersenii - Pedersen's ...... $55 was $45 in December
    P. fasciata - Sri Lanken........... $40 was $28 in December
    P. Ornata - Ornate ................ $36 was $26 in December
    could be size difference but the $12 jump on fasciata would have stopped me from this purchase.
     
  14. Chris V

    Chris V Arachnoknight Old Timer

    Figures

    That figures... I finally find a hobby thats inexpensive and that Im crazy about and all of a sudden the prices shoot up. Well, being a newby Im gonna stick to new world fuzzy things for now anyhow...
     
  15. Code Monkey

    Code Monkey Arachnoemperor Old Timer

    Re: Figures

    Don't go getting too riled up, it's just like any other hobby market. Prices sometimes rise on things, prices sometimes fall on other things. Fortunately for you, the general trend is for them to fall to some stable price point that is determined by the species' availability relative to demand. In general the only thing that drives prices up is when import availability declines.

    That's *why* this thread is of interest. Pokies are going up in cost which is against the general trend for a group of spiders that's primarily available through captive breeding and, hypothetically, stable in terms of supply.
     
  16. Crotalus

    Crotalus Arachnoking Old Timer

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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Or something like this...

    They get more expensive because they are in high demand over there - thats capitalism :) You dont find that almost everyone wants metallica etc? Even if it cost 400 dollar, and when thats a fact - then you got it hyped.

    I dont know if "hype" is used in a particular way here but for me it depends on what the object of the hype is - in this case its spiders and then i dont use it in a negative sence. If its Puff Daddy or whatever crappy artist that being hyped - then its very negative. Maybe this dont make any sence to you at all - but hey - im swedish :)
    Maybe a "poke craze" is a better term?
    I think most prizes over there has passed the roof a long time ago and are now in orbit... :)

    /Lelle
     
  17. Lopez

    Lopez Arachnoking Old Timer

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Or something like this...

    I think Lelle is right. P.metallica suddenly sparked new interest in Poecilotheria as a genus. People were suddenly able to buy these new and exciting spiders, but for a price. Many wallets don't stretch that far, so people plumped for the cheaper ones in the meantime - ie "I can't afford the metallica, so why not try a pederseni" or similar.
    You get this happening a lot with cars. People see the GTi version but can't afford to insure it so they go for the Si version which looks similar but isn't quite as good.

    Now, with the first batches of metallica being available, pictures get spread all over the internet, people see them at shows, people see others justifying the high price to themselves, so they think "hmm, why not go for one - lots of other people are"
    Some of it is "keeping up with the Jones'", some of it is the natural desire for something you do not have that gets fuelled by seeing someone else who does have it (basic non-malignant jealousy I guess), and some of it is just people wanting them for their own reasons.

    So, when the next lot of hatchlings appear, breeders are finding that not only is there still high demand, but that there is even more demand than before. Seeing as demand is still outstripping supply, why not increase the price? Plus of course, several middlemen/dealers will want to milk the cash cow a bit harder this time ;)

    regalis, fasciata, ornata, formosa are all still very cheap in Europe if you want to get into Pokes. My last purchases (spiderlings) of the above species cost me £2, £2, £4, £30 (3 subadults) respectively, well within the means of pretty much anyone :)
     
  18. phormingochilus

    phormingochilus Arachnoangel Old Timer

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    Re: Re: Figures

    You are forgetting some very important points.

    P. miranda, P. metallica and P. striata has just recently been introduced to the hobby - and was greatly hyped prior to this introduction by photos and rumours on various mailing lists.

    The breeding groups are few and on very few hands - the hands who dictates the price.

    The hype produced by these spectacular species "drag" the prices of the other species in this genus up.

    Also you mention that the first batch were bigger and more colorful - yes - and the new batches are smaller a few instars smaller. Good then - what happens when people start posting their new bought costly blue gems on the mailinglists? They add to the hype and more and more wish to own a P. metallica - call their local dealer who sense a great demand - raise the prices - and in the meantime the pokie-newbie-wannabies who can't/won't afford the horrid price of a fragile P. metallica s'ling buy some of the more common species which in turn raise the demand on those species as well - and you start to see a general price ascent in Pokes.

    Oh - and the first scammers has also started to sell the common species' s'lings as metallica. Quite sad to watch when you know that there are only three parties in the hobby with adult breeding groups of P. metallica - and none of those has neither supplied those dealers selling regalis as metallica.

    That's at least what I see ...

    Søren
     
  19. conipto

    conipto ArachnoPrincess Old Timer

    There's one problem we have here with that. Dealers don't say who they get their stuff from, for obvious reasons. We have no clue who got what from one of the three european dealers that have them. What person, whether or not they are legit, would say "Yeah, I bought this from some hack that I'm pretty sure doesn't have any adults.."

    Bill
     
  20. Code Monkey

    Code Monkey Arachnoemperor Old Timer

    Re: Re: Re: Figures

    I must be guilty of giving the general hobby more credit than it deserves by comparing it to my own methods of deciding what I like versus what I want versus what I "need". Posting colorful photos exposes people to interesting species and it will cause a spike in interest, but don't you think that both the actual habits & husbandry requirements of the spider combined with price shape the final demand more than any "hype"?