Poecilotheria metallica spiderling's

[shogun804]

Red Bull rocks.
It just came into Canada about 2 weeks ago, although I had my first one in the US, the same week it became available here.
So, another addiction to add to the list.

And Red Bull is expensive here! $3.42 for 250 ml!
And only available at 7-11, whick works out ok - that's where I do most of my grocery shopping.

But back to P. metallica, I think it is safe to assume that the price will come down, but just not as fast as electronics...
Also safe to assume it won't be sold at Wal-Mart, along side Jon Stewart's best selling book.
I know that I will do whatever I can though to breed this species, and most of the hobbyists that have metallica also intend to, which bodes well for the future, no?

wow it just came there im from richmond VA we have had it for a while a long time actually and its still expensive......and if you drink....red bull and vodka is the way to go....
and yes i agree the more the better for all of us im not going to try breeding just yet but in time i will and yes the price will come down eventually

 

[Sheri]

than what is the question as i recall reading the first post there is not even a question in it....im just stating my opinion yes they are expensive if you dont like it dont buy it thats all

I think what Lelle was referring to was the debate that evolved out of the first post. And essentially, the debate was the ethic involved in bringing species to market, supply and demand, gouging vs fair price, socialism vs capitalism, camels and bicylcles, red bull, breeding, clutch sizes, europe vs USA (canada not on the radar screen as usual - wait, we were in the form of maple leaves) and the growth of the hobby.

Amazing that all of that could come from that very, uhhh, simple first post.

 

[shogun804]

I think what Lelle was referring to was the debate that evolved out of the first post. And essentially, the debate was the ethic involved in bringing species to market, supply and demand, gouging vs fair price, socialism vs capitalism, camels and bicylcles, red bull, breeding, clutch sizes, europe vs USA (canada not on the radar screen as usual - wait, we were in the form of maple leaves) and the growth of the hobby.

Amazing that all of that could come from that very, uhhh, simple first post.

ohhh i feel like an ant right about now....thanks

 

[shogun804]

ohhh i feel like an ant right about now....thanks

oh yeah and i guess i should have read more than just the first and last couple of posts....

 

[Code Monkey]

oh yeah and i guess i should have read more than just the first and last couple of posts....

Oh my yes, threads can veer left, go right, double back, fork a few times, and maybe, just maybe, get somewhere back to the original topic around here.

 

[Immortal_sin]

Soren..
I doubt I am the one qualified to speak of breeders efforts stateside..But I present my take...I breed whatever I can whenever I can, regardless of the perceived value of the species...If they turn out to be hard to get rid of, I can give them to friends (I owe a few guys favors!!) or <gulp> do away with them.At the very least I can perpetuate a males genes.
I do know the hobby has a big head start in Europe and doesnt seem to be growing at a fast clip here. This I cant explain. Also I know people who won't breed something 'common' because it's not 'worth it', again not my cup of T as this is firstly my Hobby. The US hobby seems fractured for a variety of reasons, with this fellow avoiding that fellow, this dealer avoiding the ATS because it isn't "in the same league as the BTS"-nevermind if these people would contribute something to put it in the same league...
Honestly I can't really account for the guf of differences, but only do what I can, as one lone hobbyist/stay at home dad, can do in one lifetime.
Sometimes it seems the tricks of the trade are a closely guarded secret in terms of getting a species to produce...
Tony

I agree with everything Tony says here. I've only been in the hobby a bit over 3 years, but I've bred as many species as possible, both common and uncommon. I just consider it my duty, as a serious hobbyist. However, there does seem to be alot of 'secret keeping' in the hobby, and sometimes it's like pulling teeth to get people to help with tips or their experience on breeding. I have no idea why it's this way, must not be like this so much in Europe though.

 

[Code Monkey]

I have no idea why it's this way, must not be like this so much in Europe though.

This is one place I may have to lean in Lelle's direction. Some people seem to be of the opinion that breeding anything harder than a curly hair should be regarded like trade guild secret. My presumption is that they view anything that makes it easier for others to produce certain species as a threat to their pocket book - the more money tied up in certain species, the less likely they are to want to lose their "magic secret" and I think that attitude truly sucks.

 

[Swifty]

This is one place I may have to lean in Lelle's direction. Some people seem to be of the opinion that breeding anything harder than a curly hair should be regarded like trade guild secret. My presumption is that they view anything that makes it easier for others to produce certain species as a threat to their pocket book - the more money tied up in certain species, the less likely they are to want to lose their "magic secret" and I think that attitude truly sucks.

I don't agree totally with this, not on my end anyway. I've written quite a few articles, and shared tons of photos of hatching, and eggsacs throughout the years.
I've had to loose alot of males, and eggsacs through trial and error. Sometimes it has taken me years to raise up another female, or male just to get another shot.
It's not like I'm withholding some kind of info that belongs to everybody that is in the hobby or something.
Am I not a hobbyist too? (funny, you'd never guess it the way some seem to treat breeders/dealers)
I don't believe I have to spoon feed information to everybody, but I'm not being some evil spider dealer, and keeping anything from them they can't get themselves....just like I did.
But I've never turned down anybody asking about breeding.

 

[Code Monkey]

I don't agree totally with this, not on my end anyway.

Kelly, definitely not pointing the finger at you. When I win the lottery and build my dream T-breeding facility you were one of the first consultants I was going to shower with money to let me visit and follow around until you kicked me out

To be honest, there weren't any particular people in mind, but I do feel that information isn't shared as freely in the states. Some of that is an artifact of what web board or mailing list people happen to frequent, but there is something different in the attitudes over here.

 

[Botar]

To be honest, there weren't any particular people in mind, but I do feel that information isn't shared as freely in the states. Some of that is an artifact of what web board or mailing list people happen to frequent, but there is something different in the attitudes over here.

I think some of that may be from people rearing sacs from WC females and claiming to have bred the species. In other words, they aren't keeping trade secrets... they just plain can't answer the questions.

Swifty, Hoke and Jacobi have all given me good advice of one sort or another in regards to breeding or other topics. I have given advice to many people on the same topics where I have personal experience. However, as a dealer, you can't spend a good amount of time answering the same questions in regards to breeding G. rosea when you have a business to run. I will typically give them some general info and refer them to A-pets/A-boards for detailed info. Not trying to guard trade secrets... just trying to prioritize.

Botar

 

[Dekejis]

In my own personal experience; I've spoken at length with several of the dealers here, and they've all been very free with advice on breeding on many occasions.

-and -

(not in response to Code Monkey, but to the thread in general):
I myself don't mind the prices; it is, after all supply and demand (as has been stated already). Moreover, I feel that it's the folks that spend the $400 for a "new and trendy" spider that help keep these guys in business to sell the $5 spider to the other guy. I've also found that many of the dealers here have been exceptionally generous as well.

 

[Brian F.]

Re. comment on P. met prices...

Look, it's only a matter of time before the price begins to drop. The more people own them, the more people will breed them, and the more you start to see them, the less they will cost. As with any collectible, it's worth as much as someone is willing to pay for it.

Besides -- and I'm not trying to start a flame war here -- if you think $300 or $400 is a lot of money, you should go to one of the larger reptile shows in the country, like the NARBC in Chicago, and watch people spend $8000-$10,000 on a piebald ball python or $20,000 on an albino red-footed tortoise. It will put things in perspective for you.

Brian F.

 

[Swifty]

Kelly, definitely not pointing the finger at you. When I win the lottery and build my dream T-breeding facility you were one of the first consultants I was going to shower with money to let me visit and follow around until you kicked me out

To be honest, there weren't any particular people in mind, but I do feel that information isn't shared as freely in the states. Some of that is an artifact of what web board or mailing list people happen to frequent, but there is something different in the attitudes over here.

I know it wasn't directed at me in general Code, and I do know about the "bad buzz" that surrounds this hobby. Everybody is infected with it to some degree. It's not just here either, it's wordwide. I wish it wasn't there, and I don't think comparing European to U.S markets, as some have in this thread, to be very accurate. It ain't all roses over there.

Concerning the breeding info sharing, I've gotten most of my information, from a colaboration of hear say, and more importantly, being able to read my tarantulas body language. It's really not a hidden secret, it's a mixture of timing, conditioning, observation and luck. Of course a certain amout of research is involed, but more and more people are catching on, and becoming successful.

I've killed many spiderlings in my days from trying new techniques. New breeders now days have far more advantage than I did when there wasn't alot to go on.
I don't turn down an opputuity to breed a species, just because it's cheap, unless I am over run already with that species.
My pricelist is not geared for just the rare collector, but for beginners too.

My problem with helping people, is as Botar mentioned, I wish I had the time! I struggle to find time to be a good husband and daddy.

 

[Brian S]

Kelly,
You are right. There is a certain amount of trial and error that one must do. Certain things can only be learned that way. Not everything can be written down in stone to where anyone can just follow step by step instructions and be perfect.
As for dealers like you and Botar, I feel you guys would share any info you have. I can't say that about others because I have had no dealings with them.
Anyway my 10 cents on this

 

[Ulwembu]

It doesn't mean that I don't condemn it - on the contrary, but if the species is present it's not extinct. And while the recovery of the single populations to the former state may take a while - some times a very long while - it will recover in some way or another.

True it will but it may take years and years before the first babies are seen again. Take into account the collecting of firewood and deforestation and the full damage is done.

But I do not concur with this kind of collecting. My first biology mentor (if you like that expression) always told me that if I wished to collect anything I should only do it from an area where the species were found in numbers and only take a few for myself (and keep the locality secret) this was while I was younger and pertaining plant species, but the basic core I find pretty sound and I still keep this in mind when I am collecting.

Glad to hear that. If I look at the way we collect for science it's about the same. We first check the availability of the species and then collect a few samples. Our maximum is 5 per location and most of those are immatures in the hope to obtain males for revision and description.

[quote}Many local collectors haven't this attitude and will collect untill there's nothing more, and this may be bad and damage populations of animals, but if it is the only chance for them to get food on the table it's hard to blame them, though it's not a sustainable way of collecting.[/quote]

This is true but remember for who they are collecting... It's mainly for us, the tarantula keepers. The prices paid for specimens by the exporters are relatively so high that a weeks work will get them a months pay.

The actual habitat of metallica is not as small as some persons wish you to perceive it ;-) It's found in the entire mountain range in this particular area. And though it may look like a small area when looking at the world map it's in reality a vast vast and greatly inaccesible area, which by it's sheer geography will protect this species for some time still.

I gather you have this from personal observations and did a full study on the area?

I do however agree if the locality of a given species is so small and isolated and the species is only found in - say - one colony, then I concur with the idea that the removal of even only one adult specimen will harm the colony in some way, though I do not believe it will destroy the colony (unless the adult is the last existing specimen that is).

Nope, one specimen will not destroy the colony but say you take a gravid female, you take also the eventual off-spring. That's not one animal anymore. A lot of other animals benefit from these, by eating them or by being eaten (and so to stop these from overpopulating).

So I take it that the habitats are more isolated colonies that are relatively easily accesible (4x4) and the time consumption of covering each square kilometer is lower than when dealing with rain forest (hour/km2(3) ratio in this case is extreme) - and thus more fragile?

Depends of course where you go. In the area where I did my 5 years in a row research there are many almost inaccessable mountains. Not because of trees and such but more because they are very steep and there are almost no roads. On top of that 4 goldmines explore the area and they try to stop anyone to come on their grounds to prevent illegal mining. Luckily I have contacts with two of the bigger mines and thus I can cover a fairly large area overthere.
Now say you would go the Augacephalus junodi colony, it's flat land right next to a main road. Although a big part is protected because it's included in a game reserve, the whole area around the reserve is open for the greedy. In a strip of 100 by 30 meters we found between 30 to 40 large burrows. Last time we were there, there were people working the road and it would have taken less then USD 100,- for one to just take a bulldozer and dig up this whole strip.

Watch your foot steps Thomas ;-) I think we are equally misanthropic at the core LOL. There are a few parameters which makes the situation in India really grave. One is off course the western demand for spices, rice and tea and other troical export crops, another is the absolute lack of birth control in India, which is very fast approaching the 1 billion mark in humans and accelerating.

Well, maybe we should stop sending all these medicines...

With most of these people living in rural areas and cooking using fire wood, the craving for fire wood is big, and many states are devoid of any fire wood, and thus they import fire wood from other states thus escalating the deterioration in these areas as well. And third - all this deforestation has a major impact on the water accesability in India, which are in grave lack of drinking water dur to lack of downpour, mainly because of the massive deforestation. (you know - Tree's attract water, which condense and pours down maintaining the ground water level and the vitality of the forest - which attract water - etc etc). No downpour means no forest, which means lack of biotopes for a great variety of animals. And all this combined is lethal for nature.

You are absolutely right! It can also turn the other way. The valley in South Africa where I did a research during 5 years has the problem of having too much forest on the mountain tops. The commercial forestry has reached the top of the mountains there and each large tree takes in about 80 liters of water every day. These are non-indigenous trees and thus life in those forests is absolutely lacking. The problem with them taking in so much water is that they are planted on the prime filtering system for the valley. I have seen pictures of the early 1900's where the oxwagens, being pulled by 18 oxen, were standing completely in the water, complete with the animals. Nowadays you can cross the rivers by foot and they are mostly only 6 meters wide at the most. The valley is drying out because of these forests.

Yes it is too bad for him - and his own fault - and he must have calculated this risk - etc etc. But in order to get a more objective view on any given situation it pays to be empathic and thus view the situation from both sides also and most definetly if you don't agree - you know the term - "know your enemy"

Very true.

I agree if you sell ALL offspring. But to my best knowledge good sized cuts of each eggsac are kept for future breeding by most collectors, or at least this is the most sound to do. And usually also shares are placed with fellow hobbyists to ensure more than one breeding group. At least this is how I like to do it. The money aspect is just that - money. Call it greed or whatever, but sometimes you get a little cream on the top for your efforts, and sometimes you don't. Usually the whining starts when you get the cream and others don't ... but it's a chance of luck and nothing more.

Sorry but here I don't agree. How can you tell you are keeping the stronger genes out of the nest? If you sell spiderlings from the start you might sell the stronger animals. If you want to do it like this I would keep everything back till they are juvenile and are able to being sexed. That way you keep the strong healthy ones for breeding and you get to keep the sex you want. Now I'm not implyng that you should sell of the weaker ones. They would have died by that time anyway.
Getting an eggsac, keeping some behind for yourself and then sell off the rest without knowing what you sell and what you keep back is not the way to start captive breeding groups.

LOL - you need to be more hard on me and more slack in your interpretation of your own values to make me loose my respect of you ;-) I cannot do anything but admire your work and respect your opinions, because you are DOING something, and not just TALKING about it. We may not have the same methods, but I think the core motives are more or less the same - and think about it - wouldn't it be dead boring if we agreed on everything?

I must admit I think the same about you. I know how you work and most of my comments weren't directed at you but I know you know that.

Will you btw visit the Stuttgart show this fall?

Of course I will! The taxonomist that I work with gives the lecture so I just have to go and see if he makes mistakes

 

[phormingochilus]

Hi Søren,
the big question now: How many fingers do you have at each hand!? =;-)~

LOL

May I ask from when your informations are respectively are you sure that there hasn't been anyone down in India in the last weeks/month to collect more P. metallica? =;-)

I cannot exclude the possibility that there has been more expeditions into the area, but to my knowledge (limited as you may know lol) there haven't been any after this particular species afaik. But who knows?

Søren

 

[phormingochilus]

Hi Tony

Good to hear ;-) I haven't any prejudise of species - if I can get a male for my females I breed them. No matter if it is some small brown dwarf species that noone cares for or the large colourful ones. My motivation is the pleasure of a succesful breeding. Only after that I start to think of how to get rid of those annoying time consuming critters LOL With most species I share my offspring with close friends and sell off the rest - this is my idea of the hobby. People I know really well and who does me favours in return optimally shouldn't pay a penny for my spiderlings. But the rest - well - will have to show me the dough, unless they are absolute beginners on one of my "soft" days (god forbid it) LOL ;-)

Regards
Søren

Soren..
I doubt I am the one qualified to speak of breeders efforts stateside..But I present my take...I breed whatever I can whenever I can, regardless of the perceived value of the species...If they turn out to be hard to get rid of, I can give them to friends (I owe a few guys favors!!) or <gulp> do away with them.At the very least I can perpetuate a males genes.
I do know the hobby has a big head start in Europe and doesnt seem to be growing at a fast clip here. This I cant explain. Also I know people who won't breed something 'common' because it's not 'worth it', again not my cup of T as this is firstly my Hobby. The US hobby seems fractured for a variety of reasons, with this fellow avoiding that fellow, this dealer avoiding the ATS because it isn't "in the same league as the BTS"-nevermind if these people would contribute something to put it in the same league...
Honestly I can't really account for the guf of differences, but only do what I can, as one lone hobbyist/stay at home dad, can do in one lifetime.
Sometimes it seems the tricks of the trade are a closely guarded secret in terms of getting a species to produce...
Tony

 

[phormingochilus]

The price will first drop when the monopoly is broken - either by some of the other collectors or when the first batch is big enough to breed. I saw a mating of two adults from the first batch in another thread on this site, so I guess that the price decline is close at hand if they succeed in breeding them, though I suppose the first batch from such small specimens will barely be enough to split among friends ;-)

Søren

Re. comment on P. met prices...

Look, it's only a matter of time before the price begins to drop. The more people own them, the more people will breed them, and the more you start to see them, the less they will cost. As with any collectible, it's worth as much as someone is willing to pay for it.

Besides -- and I'm not trying to start a flame war here -- if you think $300 or $400 is a lot of money, you should go to one of the larger reptile shows in the country, like the NARBC in Chicago, and watch people spend $8000-$10,000 on a piebald ball python or $20,000 on an albino red-footed tortoise. It will put things in perspective for you.

Brian F.

 

[FryLock]

As regards secrets too breeding some species you need to know three main things about the spider your breeding

1. What country is it from 2. What bio type does it live in 3. What altitude does it live in, with tho’s three you can research what temp’s/day lengths/and seasonal changes take place I,e wet and dry seasons ect.

A lot of spiders mate without problems but never drop sac’s with the right climatic data you can go some way too changing that sadly a lot of ppl did not do these things in years gone by (i know i was slow too start trying things like these).

 

[FryLock]

No matter if it is some small brown dwarf species that noone cares for

for the true hobbyist LBJ's are the real deal.