phonutria sac when to pull and how to know if its furtile?

[bluefrogtat2]

as in the thousands of people who have had problems with the lqs,and andros?
so far i am not seeing your point.if they are to be regulated in a different fashion than the lq's and andros and any other hots,then why?
there have been numerous deadly insects on the market for years and i sure dont recall hearing about all the deaths from them.sure you are gonna have the occasional guy who does post something ignorant,but like i have stated where are all the sicarius and androctonus reports and bad publicity?these should be handled in the exact same way..no different at all.
they should be kept out of the inexperienced or novice keepers of course.but to put a tag on them other than a tag you would apply to a lq or a androctonus would be ridiculous...
i mean can cause death is enough right?i mean dead is dead,a phounetria cannot kill you deader then a sicarius or a andro by any means.so why should they cause any more alarm than either of these deadly scorps?
i think the current regulations seem to be working just fine.and to tag one over the other is a joke,trying to teach proper technique and housing has worked for the lq's and the andros,why would there be any difference in the pho's?
and u can argue the fact about the pokies all day but i know of more than one member on the boards that has made a visit to the emergency room over a pokie envenomation,so where do we draw the line..
i personally dont like the keeping of pitbulls at all,but who am i to say that there all bad and no one should own one because of my bad experiences...
there is no reason to tag a phounetria different then any of the other "deadly"inverts currently available,and i for one see no reason to raise a fuss over them more than i would a sicarius etc...
i dont think they should not be sold to just anyone,but i personally dont want the government to tell me i cant own them because they say i cant?
i personally am very happy that i will be able to get the phounetrias into my collection,and will be happy to see them in a few of the more experienced keepers hands as well.....and yes that includes my good friend john...lol
andy

 

[John Apple]

Please John, shut up really.You dont make any sense. Do a favor to yourself and dont keep posting ridiculous non sense posts.


Andy,

I never said we shouls single out Phoneutria, but we are talking about Phoneutria here.

The venom of these species can not compare to the venom of Poecilotheria, so no matter what you have kept or not, that is pointless.

The reasoning of "so far nothing has happened" means pretty much nothing.
The more available they are without any control, the more chances of problems to the point of baning the whole thing. And as I said, then everything would have to be kept ilegally.
Is asking for problems, if you ask me.

Another stupid reasoning is "I keep them safe", "I have them for some time and nothing has ever happened"...That is ridiculous.

We are not talking about you guys, we are talking about the HUGE amount of people who fills the YouTube accounts with hots handleing and prodding these animals. People who WILL get these highly venomous animals and who WILL cause trouble.

Ok let me explain
horse blinder viewpoint is just that Francisco...single sighted ...one minded...granted if you understood a little bit more on the old sayings.... your limited understanding of the AMERICAN way of talking would be a bit more and your puncuation and grammer would be better...you would understand what is being said...but I feel even then you would be single sighted... but not tossing stones here
So in retrospect shutting up is not something I can do when confronted with blind mindless ignorance that you toss out on phoenutria.
yes they are fast and have the potential for a bad bite...which is even less than the potential for a bad bite on other 'animals' in captivity,,,be that as it may you seem to single out phoes on your very 'limited' knowledge [notice I said limited] of them in captivity...
really Fran...lay off the andro and do it naturally

 

[Fran]

really Fran...lay off the andro and do it naturally

Done with you man. Get the high school diploma, then well chat.

 

[Fran]

as in the thousands of people who have had problems with the lqs,and andros?
so far i am not seeing your point.if they are to be regulated in a different fashion than the lq's and andros and any other hots,then why?
there have been numerous deadly insects on the market for years and i sure dont recall hearing about all the deaths from them.sure you are gonna have the occasional guy who does post something ignorant,but like i have stated where are all the sicarius and androctonus reports and bad publicity?these should be handled in the exact same way..no different at all.
they should be kept out of the inexperienced or novice keepers of course.but to put a tag on them other than a tag you would apply to a lq or a androctonus would be ridiculous...
i mean can cause death is enough right?i mean dead is dead,a phounetria cannot kill you deader then a sicarius or a andro by any means.so why should they cause any more alarm than either of these deadly scorps?
i think the current regulations seem to be working just fine.and to tag one over the other is a joke,trying to teach proper technique and housing has worked for the lq's and the andros,why would there be any difference in the pho's?
and u can argue the fact about the pokies all day but i know of more than one member on the boards that has made a visit to the emergency room over a pokie envenomation,so where do we draw the line..
i personally dont like the keeping of pitbulls at all,but who am i to say that there all bad and no one should own one because of my bad experiences...
there is no reason to tag a phounetria different then any of the other "deadly"inverts currently available,and i for one see no reason to raise a fuss over them more than i would a sicarius etc...
i dont think they should not be sold to just anyone,but i personally dont want the government to tell me i cant own them because they say i cant?
i personally am very happy that i will be able to get the phounetrias into my collection,and will be happy to see them in a few of the more experienced keepers hands as well.....and yes that includes my good friend john...lol
andy

I dont know how to make you understand that Im no implying to single out Phoneutria. Im just saying that to add more highly venomous sp without control is gonna end up costing the hobby for everybody.
Just because some had the deep need to have a Phoneutria at home.

 

[John Apple]

Done with you man. Get the high school diploma, then well chat.

got one and you could not carry the conversation on an even level...still one sided and when called out you jab...then get jabbed back and run...gosh dang it all there I go again
If you don't like the heat stay out of the kitchen Franny

 

[bluefrogtat2]

all i am saying fran is that there have been highly venomous inverts offered for years and it hasnt caused any grief,why change what has worked for so long because a new sp. has become available..?
i understand your concern but why would you voice it now when it is in reference to a highly sought after sp.when there have been highly venomous scorps and spiders in the hobby for countless years with no negative results?
it just isnt makin any sense to me at all?
if you are so concerned on the phounetria ,then why arent you ranting about the other sp's that are potentially deadly?(sicarius,latros andros...etc..)
i say to ignore all the drama and keep things as they have been so that responsible keepers are able to own and study this wonderful species..
we dont need the government involved at all on this matter..what we need are responsible dealers distributing these awesome spiders into the right hands so that we are able to own them and not rely on people brown bagging them in ,get them established to where they are easily manageable,and if treated with respect,a wonderful sp to keep ,breed and observe..
andy

 

[hassman789]

Why don't people just get a huntsman? Lol to me some of them look just like phoneutria:?. Or like somone said before. does owning somthing that dangerous make you feel "bad to the bone". This isn't aimed towards anyone at all! I havn't been reading the whole thread.

 

[John Apple]

No not bad to the bone at all...more on the line of fascinating...amazed....the same reasons people want a latro or loxoceles or even an atrax..[boy imagine the bull when they show up] and yes I do have a few huntsman

 

[bluefrogtat2]

most of us have had,kept,and even produced slings from huntsman for years,they cant hold a candle to a fully mature female phounetria...
lol..and no the bad to the bone doesnt apply or i would just get a cobra..
andy

 

[elvasco]

I haven't posted in a long time but I lurk daily. I am still amazed at the brutal stupidity on here, just poor and frankly dangerous thought and arguing.

First obviously there are more car fatalaties than dangerous animal atalaties because there are millions of people with cars and hundreds (thousands at most) with dangerous animals. Even including dangerous dogs (which is irrelevant in itself because you can train a dog, pretty sure you can't train phoneutria.

Second I love hearing this BS from my fellow Americans about "liberty and freedom." I bet if this idiot John gets bit this whole tough guy freedom crap goes right out the window and he runs to the hospital sobbing like a girl apologetic for being An idiot. Then what John? Does your local hospital have phoneutria antivenom? Could they get it here in time? How much does it cost to overnight antivenom from South America John? Are you independently wealthy? How about your healthcare (assuming you have any) John? Does it cover you being a dumb idiot and playing with deadly animals from South America? My guess is no which means the rest of us pick up the tab. Know what that's called John? Socialism. Where is your American way now? How about when "experts" allow people to buy these? Should they make sure they're adequetely insured so te rest of us Americans don't have to pay?

Fran- though I'm not a popular person to have in your corner, thank you for being a voice of reason. I hope you know from your time here not all Americans are brutally retarded like this fine bunch.

 

[John Apple]

I haven't posted in a long time but I lurk daily. I am still amazed at the brutal stupidity on here, just poor and frankly dangerous thought and arguing.

First obviously there are more car fatalaties than dangerous animal atalaties because there are millions of people with cars and hundreds (thousands at most) with dangerous animals. Even including dangerous dogs (which is irrelevant in itself because you can train a dog, pretty sure you can't train phoneutria.

Second I love hearing this BS from my fellow Americans about "liberty and freedom." I bet if this idiot John gets bit this whole tough guy freedom crap goes right out the window and he runs to the hospital sobbing like a girl apologetic for being An idiot. Then what John? Does your local hospital have phoneutria antivenom? Could they get it here in time? How much does it cost to overnight antivenom from South America John? Are you independently wealthy? How about your healthcare (assuming you have any) John? Does it cover you being a dumb idiot and playing with deadly animals from South America? My guess is no which means the rest of us pick up the tab. Know what that's called John? Socialism. Where is your American way now? How about when "experts" allow people to buy these? Should they make sure they're adequetely insured so te rest of us Americans don't have to pay?

Fran- though I'm not a popular person to have in your corner, thank you for being a voice of reason. I hope you know from your time here not all Americans are brutally retarded like this fine bunch.

being a dumb idiot:?..man you are really something....so when you rolled over in bed and asked Fran what was bothering him...was that your reasoning for your insulting post
healthcare...yup got it
independantly wealthy...no ...just comfy
Playing with deadly animals...can't you read...I in no way advocate handling even a smithi...been on any sicarius threads lately
My American way....ummm I was in the service and worked for my country and the American way...did you ?
also be careful calling someone even and idiot here will get ya a warning unless selectivity is being used
remember there are millions of phoes and the majority of bites [over 90%] have no affects'
gee why no chest thumping on latros sicarius loxoceles

 

[zonbonzovi]

though I'm not a popular person to have in your corner

Gee, can't imagine why?

 

[elvasco]

You're doing a good job of avoiding my questions John.

Does your healthcare cover phoneutria antivenom?

does the hospital in hole in the ground tucson where you live carry antivenom?I can call the southern Arizona VA and ask for you if you want.

 

[John Apple]

You're doing a good job of avoiding my questions John.

Does your healthcare cover phoneutria antivenom?

does the hospital in hole in the ground tucson where you live carry antivenom?I can call the southern Arizona VA and ask for you if you want.

what are you man stupid...I don't live in tuscan....I live in Michigan you absolute [fill in the proper adjective]..
Also my healthcare covers any bite from anything...great coverage:worship:and pays me till I get back to work...so what else ya got
Cost of over nighting anything from C.A. is less than 100 dollars...I know this as I ship all over the world from my ups putor which covers fed ex and dhl
Does Detroit hospitals have antivenom....don't know ....I do know the zoo has salei so maybe.....guess I will call to appease your more than pompous worry

 

[Venom]

Yes, is really hard to make some people understand.

Who cares that the chances youll die are low? Are we dumb here?

It is still a higly venomous spider than on the wrong hands will cause a lot of problems. Im asking for responsabilities,for security,for regulation.

Lots of experts here I see. Experts that fill up the bite reports.

Very well. Keep them,put them available to everybody in the hobby. If you happen to get bitten you will get a humble dose of reality.
I dont care in the least, to be honest.

Fran, I would like to challenge the notion that Phoneutria are "highly venomous." There is a lot of myth and legend to these spiders, part of which comes, I think, from their size, mobility and defensiveness: they are more able to "reach out and get" someone than most other toxic spiders, simply from their size and athletic abilities.

That in itself is a factor to take into consideration with regard to how one manages them. If black widows could jump and run like a Phoneutria, they'd be more difficult to keep safely...but they wouldn't be any more toxic than they are. Their bite would still carry the same chance of death that it always has. So, I'd like you to try and think JUST about the lethality of a bite from Phoneutria, irrespective of its ability to inflict said bite.

Blacktara has posted a really interesting and informative article, which studied 422 Phoneutria bites, and included only a single fatality:

http://www.scielo.br/pdf/rimtsp/v42n1/v42n1a03.pdf

Heres the summary

From January, 1984 to December, 1996, 422 patients (ages 9 m-99 y, median 29 y) were admitted after being bitten by spiders
which were brought and identified as Phoneutria spp. Most of the bites occurred at March and April months (29.2%), in the houses
(54.5%), during the day (76.5%), and in the limbs (feet 40.9%, hands 34.3%). Upon hospital admission, most patients presented only
local complaints, mainly pain (92.1%) and edema (33.1%) and were classified as presenting mild (89.8%), moderate (8.5%) and
severe (0.5%) envenomation. Few patients (1.2%) did not present signs of envenomation. Severe accidents were only confirmed in
two children (9 m, 3 y). Both developed acute pulmonary edema, and the older died 9 h after the accident. Patients more than 70 yearold
had a significantly greater (p<0.05) frequency of moderate envenomations compared to the 10-70-year-old individuals. Proceedings
to relief local pain were frequently performed (local anesthesia alone 32.0%, local anesthesia plus analgesics 20.6% and oral analgesics
alone 25.1%). Only 2.3% of the patients (two cases classified as severe and eight as moderate, eight of them in children) were treated
with i.v. antiarachnid antivenom. No antivenom early reaction was observed. In conclusion, accidents involving the genus Phoneutria
are common in the region of Campinas, with the highest risk groups being children under 10 years of age and adults over 70 years of
age. Cases of serious envenomation are rare (0.5%).

And heres an exceprt from the text that discusses how they rated the bites


90 percent of bites basically amount to an uncomfortable ouchie

9 percent are that and you get a little sick

0.5 percent severe envenomation

The severe envenomations , 2 out of over 4öö, were both in small children

I'd just like to point out, that 1 in 422 is 0.237% So, let's look at what that means. What does a 0.2 % death rate equate to. Well..

0.2% is the percentage of fatal heart attacks that occur in persons under 35 years of age. You 35 year-olds...are you worried? Probably not...

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5006a2.htm

0.2% is the fraction of deaths by animal envenomation in Venezuela resulting from centipedes. ( Does anyone know of any "deadly" centipede species in Venezuela? I sure don't....)

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0037-86822008000200015&script=sci_arttext


In terms of spiders...

Latrodectus spp. generally have a 4 - 6% fatality rate.


Loxosceles laeta has a 3.7% fatality rate

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2577020


Loxosceles reclusa has a 10% chance of causing at lest moderate skin damage. As 10% is 50x of .2%, you have a 50x greater chance of getting a moderate-severe bite from an L. reclusa than you have of dying from a Phoneutria sp. bite.


http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn7468.html


So, given that the study of 422 bites produced only ONE fatality...which is a much lower rate of death than even Latrodectus spp., or even Loxosceles laeta, can we really say that Phoneutria are "highly" venomous? If the numbers in the study are accurate, perhaps not. "Venomous" certainly, but I think we need to be careful about how "deadly" or "highly venomous" we consider Phoneutria to be.

The numbers just aren't there to support Phoneutria deserving any more rigorous restriction than the genus Latrodectus ( which, according to the study, apparently have a fatality rate 30x that of the Phoneutria spp. )


Bottom line?

Phoneutria are not what you think they are, Fran.

 

[John Apple]

Bottom line?

Phoneutria are not what you think they are, Fran.

well and simply put:worship:

 

[delherbe]

State Sao Paulo ………….773 bites per year / 1 fatality in 2320 bites
State Parana ……………..150 bites per year / 2 fatalities in 602 bites
State Santa Catarina ………86 bites per year / no fatality
State Rio Grande do Sul …218 bites per year / no fatality

http://www.minaxtarantulas.se/articles/brazilian-wandering-spider-phon eutria-nigriventer-keyserling-1891-in-terrarium

For the most deadly spider this is really less. The most venomous? Maybe yes, but because of the small quantity not the deadliest.

 

[Earthworm Soul]

I think the underlying problem is being overshadowed here by petty personal attacks.

This started out as a debate as to the potential dangers involved in Phoneutria becoming more widely available in the hobby. I think it would behoove us to return to the subject at hand.

I don't have anything personal against any of you (save Blacktara for his repulsive racist comments in other threads), but I believe many people here are missing the point. The problem isn't whether or not the Pho is as deadly as their reputation implies. We, as a hobby, need to be more responsible regarding who we sell medically significant species to. This includes Phoneutria, Scolopendra, Heteroscodra, etc. The more Phoneutria in the hobby, the more likely it is that unscrupulous sellers will make them avaliable to minors... one medically significant bite to a minor can bring unwanted media attention to our hobby and possibly lead the way to regulations or outright bans.

 

[AzJohn]

If a study was done in which 1000 people, accross all demongraphics, (age, health, ect) were bitten by Poecilotheria tarantulas, would anyone be overly surprised if their was a death or two. Knowing that a pokie bite can send a grown man to the hospital with long term effects, I wouldn't be surprised at all. If a three year old is bitten by a pokie they could die.

This fact is what bothers John and Andy. Despite all the evidence stating otherwise, people continue to think this species is so much more dangerous than what is already here. Many medically significant species are being kept right now. But people refuse to see this. When pressed, with fact based, peer reviewed, scientific papers, they just say "your stupid for not agreeing with me." They can't see past their own stuborn preconcieved biases.

The real problem with this whole debate is that it takes away from the very real issues of keeping genus Phoneutria. The OP asked how do I safely remove an eggsack from a pissed off mom. How do I safely raise up a bunch of small babies. Sounds like real issues of importance. In fact it sound like a very important issue involving the safe husbandtry of this genus. I hope he got an answer and not 5 pages of "OMG Phoneutria" (while running around waving our arms in the air).


John

 

[Neill]

The greater issue then is how we, not just in the USA, but all over the world, self regulate in such a way that it is a respected sign that people look for when coming into the hobby.

At the end of the day, and all you have to do is look into the reptile, or dog spheres for proof, there will always be people out there who will do the wrong thing. The $/£/€ will always be more important to some.

Would I sell a genus Phoneutria.. or even a Pokie to a minor? Absolutely not.. but I would let said minor buy another species, and try to keep them under my(collective) wing.