Phoneutria fera cf Oyapok

Stefan2209

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Hi,

THANKS FOR THAT PIC, MAJOR-INTERESTING TO ME!

Not only is this the answer to my question if they´ll keep the colour, furthermore it opens up just the next question:

How many Phoneutria fera sub-species, colour-varieties, morphs, whatever you like to call them, are existing there?

End of the 90´s i kept another P. fera from french-guyane, apparently a completely different spider, definitely a Phoneutria.

Thanks for the appreciation of my pics. I did a several year-long pause of keeping these and had to learn exact the same things: info´s are rare, only thing you find very much info´s about is the toxin of P. nigriventer. Second: there are just very few pics available, most of P. nigriventer, most of poor qualitiy.

As i´m in a deep affection to this genus, my main concerns next to getting hold of live specimen again, are: tell the truth about this spiders, they´re far from being "killers", produce pics as good as i can, to show the beauty of this spiders to all people who mind looking.

So, now i´ve got a question: how big was that specimen you´ve seen in french-guyane?

@ Gigus:

Heard some sayings that this might be one of the biggest, if not the biggest Phoneutria species. They´re said to make 5,5cm (2,16") bodylength and nearly 20cm (7,87") legspan.
Wouldn´t mind if that saying would proof to be true. :D

Greetings,

Stefan
 

Gigas

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PBS round what size is the spider in the picture?
and the DWA license is so annoying, Because of it i can' get my hands on any vittatus :(
 

TVspiderman

TV's own Martin Nicholas
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All of these measurements are close but approximate, as I was not sure how she would have taken to being prodded by a pair of dividers!

However, The spider pictured was approx. body length 50mm (2"), legspan 150mm (6") and I've no reason to think this was exceptional.

I encountered P. nigriventer in Peru and found their size to be comparable to P. fera, if perhaps more heavily-bodied.

I was told the key taxonomic ID for Phoneutria among the Ctenidae is the black line down the pedipalps and the thick brush of hairs on the same. I'd be very interested to see if fera has sub-species (and whether bahiensis, reidyi and the other one I always forget, has as well)

In truth I did not find her too aggressive either - she did attack but it took a couple of touches to her legs for her to do so. The same could not be said of the adult male that we obtained. The Jump and Bite reputation, was spot-on!
 

T.Raab

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WTF: you bougth gay Phoneutria ;)

I never want any pink spider. ;)
 

Scorpendra

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for some reason, i've always been fascinated with Phoneutrias. it must be the prospect of the danger in keeping them, as i feel the same about L. quins too. that color phase is very nice :clap:
 

Stefan2209

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Hey guys,

@ PBS

That pic got even more interesting to me, as i had to recognize yesterday evening, that my two specimen now after their molts show some different colours!
Now i´m guessing, if the pictured specimen here are males? Did you notice any palps on the specimen pictured by you?
Your account, that the males are way more aggressive than the females, is seconded by another german keeper of this species, whose specimen were already bigger than mine. He told me his male had been quite bitey and gave him thread displays on a daily basis, while his female was quite cosy in comparison.
Yeah, in nature sizes of 15cm legspan and even more, are not that unusual for Phoneutria ssp. My P. fera specimen from french-guyane i kept back in the 90´s had 4cm body and 16cm legspan.
Last year i aquired a cb (Lelle´s bred) P. nigriventer female of the former P. keyserlingi-variant that had massive 5cm body and still 13cm legspan. Talk about big and massive....
I found your ideas about the taxonomic ID very interesting, i´ve never heard something like this, but would take it for a very relaxed method, if this would proof to be a halfway trusty way.

@ Timo

Timo! You should know better than that, no sexual discrimination, please!;) :D

@ Molitor

Guess this spiders would be a great disappointment to you, if you´d keep them for their "dangerousness" and the "thrill-factor", as they are just as agressive as a Cupiennius salei. By their behaviour, i´ve to remind myself each time i do maintenance duties, to not put my bare hands into their enclosures. By their temperament it´s just to temptating to just do it by hand...

Finally, i guess i show you some pics of my smaller (not much) specimen, that i´ve never shown before. This spiders looked exactly the same, since i got them, till the last molt. I couldn´t believe my eyes, when i looked into the tank yesterday evening!
The colour did quite a change. Furthermore strange, if you see this particular spider under normal daylight, it seems just brown. This colours just come out, if one shines a flashlight on the spider.

Enjoy:





Greetings,

Stefan
 

TVspiderman

TV's own Martin Nicholas
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No, the spider pictured was definately a female (we kept her in a vivarium for 2 weeks filming her behaviour and getting close-up shots and one morning she surprised us by producing this!) You'll be pleased to know she and her eggsack were released unharmed into the forest after we filmed her

Excuse the cheesy photo, it was for publicity purposes!

The black-lined pedipalp identification is (I'm told) quite reliable but, like you I distrust identification on the basis of colours and markings only.

Photo copyright K. Flay & Granada Wild TV.
 

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Scorpendra

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i mean the concept of them having potentially lethal venom and being (in)famous for it. i reserve my love of viciousness for Ts ;)
 

Stefan2209

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PBS Spiderman said:
No, the spider pictured was definately a female (we kept her in a vivarium for 2 weeks filming her behaviour and getting close-up shots and one morning she surprised us by producing this!) You'll be pleased to know she and her eggsack were released unharmed into the forest after we filmed her

Excuse the cheesy photo, it was for publicity purposes!

The black-lined pedipalp identification is (I'm told) quite reliable but, like you I distrust identification on the basis of colours and markings only.
Hi again,

this gets more and more interesting: both of my specimen are quite calm and show not the slightest signs of bulbs, i´d just love to know, if i´ve two females sitting around here...

That pic is also interesting, as it shows some different colours. Mine show their bright, here displayed colours just under direct light.
If you look at them under normal daylight, they resemble exactly the colour shown at your last pic....

Hmm, the taxonomic ID of Phoneutria is not too easy in my opinion. However, a very rough "estimation" is quite easy: if it shows certain markings, like the face-stripes, red chelicera and eventually the well-known abdominal markings AND is exetremely defensive and giving you the "classic" thread display, you better be careful....
That said, i get more and more irritated by this spiders, they are just NOT aggressive or defensive at all. To make the last pics i had to poke the spiders, so that they´d leave their hide behind their bark pieces, even then they just didn´t care. I could poke them with the wire, they didn´t care. Poke some more, the spiders turned slowly around and walked away....

Very,very strange for a Phoneutria....

Otherwise they show the famous red cheliceras and have the abdominal markings,too, so what else should it be? :confused:

Greetings,

Stefan
 

T.Raab

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Hi,

Otherwise they show the famous red cheliceras and have the abdominal markings,too, so what else should it be?
Colour is a very poor indicate for ID. ;)

What else should it be? (Maybe new Genus?)

Check the taxonomical key features of Phoneutria in compare to other Ctenidae. Do not waste your time too much in looking for colours. ;)
(BTW: Markings are defently different to colouration.)

Maybe the genital morphology is different to other species or genus?
 

Stefan2209

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Hi Timo,

you´re right about most points, as long as you stick to "hard taxonomical facts", which i can´t, as i´m not a scientist.

As i´m just a "private keeper", i stick to facts, that i CAN compare, like markings and that colours, that are present in most, if not all Phoneutria.

I second, that colours are in now way a useful tool to ID a species, however the markings are a different matter, when it comes to certain species. Take P. boliviensis for an example: you´ll find even south-american scientists stating, that this species (as the only one in the genus) can be ID éd just by its outer appearance.
While this may sound unbelievable, i came to believe it over the years. Since years i collect every single pic of Phoneutria ssp. i can get hold of, with quite interesting results: nearly all species show slightly colour-differences, to complete different looks, depending, where they were collected.
All, BUT P. boliviensis...interesting.

There had been found another species, that resembled P. nigriventer so perfect, that the Pro´s were more than surprised to learn, that it was indeed a new discovered sub-species of P. fera, when they analysed the taxonomic features...

To my very best understanding, the whole systematic regarding this genus is just a very "careful idea" of the truth. What to think about statments like: "Sure, there are more species, they just need to be described...":eek:

From that point of view, i for myself don´t care all too much what species it is, regardless, as long as it´s a Phoneutria, you better be careful.
My main interest in this genus still is with P. boliviensis, not for the looks, but for the toxin: it´s not potent enough to endanger humans in a serious way. The extra plus, that they can be identified by pure looks, doesn´t disturb me either. ;)

With the pictured species it´s a completely different matter, as i´m not all too eager to learn which species it is, my main concern is about the genus....

THAT calm? Like i said: strange.
Your idea, it might be something other or even something complete new has its own logic, may well be, BUT what about the markings?
I second your opinion, that red chelicera might not be a that important point, but i have a definitely other opinion about the abdominal markings. Haven´t seen these in any other genus than Phoneutria. And i´m collecting pics of other ctenid genus since years,too.

What about the eye-configuration, that could indeed be a factor hard enough for taxonomical debates. I can´t stress enough, that i donno anything about taxonomy, but i can´t stress enough,too, that i´m not new to ctenid´s and to my opinion there´s just something "wrong" with the eyes...

Greetings,

Stefan
 

Jmadson13

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It's wonderful to see so much Developement with your Phoneutria Stefan and thank you for keeping us posted. I do appreciate such information and photos from you, Martin and all bravo!:clap:
 

Crotalus

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Martin,
where did you find nigriventer in Peru? According to the latest revision of the genus they are not found in that particular country.

Stefan,
Im sure you know that most spiders get somewhat calmer after a while in terrarium so I wouldnt make so much of it that your spider isnt showing the "typical" Phoneutria behavior

/Lelle
 

Stefan2209

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Crotalus said:
Martin,
where did you find nigriventer in Peru? According to the latest revision of the genus they are not found in that particular country.

Stefan,
Im sure you know that most spiders get somewhat calmer after a while in terrarium so I wouldnt make so much of it that your spider isnt showing the "typical" Phoneutria behavior

/Lelle
Hi Lelle,

just that there´s no scientifical proof at the moment available for the presence of P. nigriventer in Peru doesn´t mean that they´re not around there, Peru is a wide land and there´re really remote areas... ;)

Sure, wc´s get used to some degree to human surroundings and presence. How much they get used to it depends to species, genus, gender and age to my experience. This said, it´s pointless, as i´m talking about cb´s here.

Captive breds are to my understanding even more used to human surroundings, comparing their behaviour to wild-caughts just shows nothing significant. However, if i compare my cb P. nigriventer and the cb P. fera´s there are some major-differences in the behaviour...

Even more interesting, if i listen to the guys who had contact to adult specimen in the natural habitat, both accounts (PBS & Thomas) are just the same: even adult wc´s in the wild had been quite calm.

Strange. I don´t say that this is impossible, i just say that i haven´t seen something like this in years...;)

Greetings,

Stefan

P.S. Regarding the distribution of Phoneutria species, check for P. bahiensis, this species was believed to be present in just onr single habitat for years....
Since they found them to be present in some other areas,too.
P. fera from Para is another story, not too long ago it was unknown that this species is around there....
Check for P. species in countries like Ecuador und Colombia, check the scientific sources, check for pics, check for scientific statements, should yield some interesting, but frustrating results...
Science is a very useful tool, but it´s never THE only truth.
 

TVspiderman

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Hi Lelle

I found nigriventer in the same place I believe you and Sheri went to, Rio Madres de Dios / Rio Tambopata. That is only 150 miles or so from the Brazilian border and I suppose its all the same forest.

I have anecdotal evidence that it is found to the north of the country in the region of Iquitos, this from a Lepidopterist friend of mine who took a photo of it on the wall of his hut - definately P. nigriventer. I have a preserved P.n that was collected in Northern Venezuela.

By their nature, an itinerant spider like Phoneutria is always going to push their distribution within the same / similar habitats, perhaps even with the help of man (timber / fruit / exports are obvious examples)

Proof I suppose that wandering spiders live up to their name!;)

Just to illustrate Stefans point re. colouration in natural light, here is a picture of P. fera taken without flash that I found in Bolivia. Very flat light brown, no hint of pink but great red / yellow flashes from the front.

Martin
 

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Crotalus

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Stefan2209

Science is a tool and i would be careful saying that a species known for not occuring in rainforest to be found in such. Esp. with ctenids that are very similar in appearence even between genus.
Where else did they find bahiensis?
 

Crotalus

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PBS Spiderman said:
Hi Lelle

I found nigriventer in the same place I believe you and Sheri went to, Rio Madres de Dios / Rio Tambopata. That is only 150 miles or so from the Brazilian border and I suppose its all the same forest.

I have anecdotal evidence that it is found to the north of the country in the region of Iquitos, this from a Lepidopterist friend of mine who took a photo of it on the wall of his hut - definately P. nigriventer. I have a preserved P.n that was collected in Northern Venezuela.

By their nature, an itinerant spider like Phoneutria is always going to push their distribution within the same / similar habitats, perhaps even with the help of man (timber / fruit / exports are obvious examples)

Proof I suppose that wandering spiders live up to their name!;)

Just to illustrate Stefans point re. colouration in natural light, here is a picture of P. fera taken without flash that I found in Bolivia. Very flat light brown, no hint of pink but great red / yellow flashes from the front.

Martin
But Tambopata is very far from the most northern known locale for nigriventer, they dont occur in the rainforest but on the atlantic coast in Brazil where its much dryer.

Pictures are good but not reliable information, my friend found a photo of a Poecilotheria hanging on a wall in Thailand ;)
 

TVspiderman

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Personally, I love the idea of telling all the breeders & collectors that there are Poecilotheria in Thailand - give the Indians a break ehh?:D

I think there is case to put that, "just because you didn't look for it, does not mean its not there" equally "absence of proof does not mean proof of absence" To my knowledge no-one has done a comprehensive cataloging of spiders in Amazonian Peru and the specimen I found ticked all the right boxes for P. nigriventer and was independently Identified by someone who knew much more than me!

You say yourself that "Specimens found in Montevideo, Uruguay, and Buenos Aires, Argentina have probably been introduced by shipments of fruit" Tambopata is drier and more temperate than more northern Amazonia. I'm prepared to accept the possibility.
 

Crotalus

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PBS Spiderman said:
Personally, I love the idea of telling all the breeders & collectors that there are Poecilotheria in Thailand - give the Indians a break ehh?:D

I think there is case to put that, "just because you didn't look for it, does not mean its not there" equally "absence of proof does not mean proof of absence" To my knowledge no-one has done a comprehensive cataloging of spiders in Amazonian Peru and the specimen I found ticked all the right boxes for P. nigriventer and was independently Identified by someone who knew much more than me!

You say yourself that "Specimens found in Montevideo, Uruguay, and Buenos Aires, Argentina have probably been introduced by shipments of fruit" Tambopata is drier and more temperate than more northern Amazonia. I'm prepared to accept the possibility.

im not saying there is not a chance. hopefully you or someone else can find them there!

Heh yeah the indians would like that im sure :)
 
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