papilio's mantids

[papilio]

Some people claim ghosts are communal, but after hatching out many ooths over the past few months, I can tell you from personal experience they really aren't. Even with plenty of food, space, and hanging structure, the risk of cannibalization is still high. The males tend to grow more quickly than the females, and will readily eat individuals that are a molt behind. Unfortunately, this means you may quickly have a very male heavy setup. As early instars they will generally leave one another alone, but you will not be able to keep them together through their entire lives without casualties. All mantises are best to separate as they begin to molt.

Beautiful pictures as usual papilio! You have some beautiful specimens. Best of luck with the orchid female! My first ooth just hatched out this past week. Not as many as I would have hoped, but sometimes you just have light ooths :/. Hoping the next is heavier.

Thanks a lot McGuiverstein!

I know, there's probably more misinformation on the web than truth, only direct experience like yours can set things straight!
I personally wouldn't try to raise any mantids communally. When I'd just begun keeping mantids (pretty recently) I repeatedly made the mistake of leaving tiny nymphs together with siblings an instar ahead ... after losing L2 Creos, Ghosts and even Idolos you'd think I would've learned more quickly!

The Orchid's still pretty small (would just cover a quarter, maybe) so it'll be a while before breeding attempts with it, just hope I can find a mate when the time comes. Right now I'm still waiting, with plenty of apprehension, for my female Idolo to mature after having been sub for nearly four months. If I'm fortunate enough for her to live through this molt I'll excitedly look forward to the possibility of breeding them!


Sadly this little L2 was the one I lost ... fortunately, not during the photo shoot.

 

[McGuiverstein]

Thanks a lot McGuiverstein!

I know, there's probably more misinformation on the web than truth, only direct experience like yours can set things straight!
I personally wouldn't try to raise any mantids communally. When I'd just begun keeping mantids (pretty recently) I repeatedly made the mistake of leaving tiny nymphs together with siblings an instar ahead ... after losing L2 Creos, Ghosts and even Idolos you'd think I would've learned more quickly!

The Orchid's still pretty small (would just cover a quarter, maybe) so it'll be a while before breeding attempts with it, just hope I can find a mate when the time comes. Right now I'm still waiting, with plenty of apprehension, for my female Idolo to mature after having been sub for nearly four months. If I'm fortunate enough for her to live through this molt I'll excitedly look forward to the possibility of breeding them!

No problem , just thought I'd pitch in my two cents. After experiencing the trauma of looking into the containers on a few different occasions to see a hapless nymph being eaten by an older sibling, I wanted to try to help others avoid the same situation. To be honest, I had also believed the information I'd seen that they were relatively communal, and early on made the mistake of telling a few people I'd sold them to that it shouldn't be a problem. After their own mishaps they separated them as they grew and I've been telling everyone else to do the same..

I wish you the absolute best of luck with the diabolica. My female is actually subadult too, but she molted within the past few weeks so I will have some time to wait for her to mature. Best advice I can give is to keep a very every keen eye out for signs of heavy premolt, and immediately boost and maintain high humidity when she looks like she's about to. It has been what I've done with every molt from mine so far, and I'm not going to finish that sentence for fear of jinxing myself. I'm still going to find some wood to knock on though. WHEN both of ours make it through to adulthood, we will need to stay in touch about passing a male back and forth. I have a few places to check, and will keep you posted if I find one.

EDIT: Beautiful picture! Sorry, I only saw the text when I went to respond. Sorry about your loss, but I'm sure you'll have more luck with the subadult female!

 

[papilio]

No problem , just thought I'd pitch in my two cents. After experiencing the trauma of looking into the containers on a few different occasions to see a hapless nymph being eaten by an older sibling, I wanted to try to help others avoid the same situation. To be honest, I had also believed the information I'd seen that they were relatively communal, and early on made the mistake of telling a few people I'd sold them to that it shouldn't be a problem. After their own mishaps they separated them as they grew and I've been telling everyone else to do the same..

I wish you the absolute best of luck with the diabolica. My female is actually subadult too, but she molted within the past few weeks so I will have some time to wait for her to mature. Best advice I can give is to keep a very every keen eye out for signs of heavy premolt, and immediately boost and maintain high humidity when she looks like she's about to. It has been what I've done with every molt from mine so far, and I'm not going to finish that sentence for fear of jinxing myself. I'm still going to find some wood to knock on though. WHEN both of ours make it through to adulthood, we will need to stay in touch about passing a male back and forth. I have a few places to check, and will keep you posted if I find one.

EDIT: Beautiful picture! Sorry, I only saw the text when I went to respond. Sorry about your loss, but I'm sure you'll have more luck with the subadult female!

Thanks again! Yes, with these difficult species it's good for us all to maintain a bit of a network.

I'll have no problem keeping the humidity up, from my reading/discussions with those having a great deal of Idolo experience falling is the biggest risk, those tarsal claws are just so tiny for that massive body, and once the mantis has slipped its feet out of the exuvia those hooks are on their own to stay attached while the mantis does its thing. Seems like a design flaw to me.


You may find these worth looking over ... I believe that you'll need to be a registered user to see the posts, if you're not already.
http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=18234http://
http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=18848http://

These are fairly old, Idolo technique has come quite a way by now but these give you a good idea of the problems initially encountered.
I'm in pretty regular contact with Precarious which is a big help, he really knows his stuff!

 

[McGuiverstein]

Thanks for the links. I'm actually a lurking member on there haha, so I'll definitely take a look.

But yeah, I know that falling is a huge problem with diabolica. It always has me very on edge whenever I know a molt is coming. I have read though, that as they grow, they begin to use the hooks on their legs to wrap their legs around whatever they're molting from. I haven't witnessed it, but if that's the case, it may explain why there is such a high incidence of falls in mesh containers (besides not being able to really provide consistent humidity). Because it's so easy for them to hang from the top, they may ignore more appropriate locations elsewhere in the enclosure.

I know that humidity plays a large role in successful molts of large mantises though. With enough moisture in the air to keep the mantis soft, and to lubricate its exit of the exuvia, it means less waving and wiggling, which I would assume drastically reduces the risk of falling. I know it definitely helps to keep slow their hardening reduces the potential for a trapped appendage.

I just hope I've set my enclosure up in a way that's conducive to a successful molt....

PS, the page was refreshed just as I was finishing my initial response, and I couldn't recover it . I did my best to remember what I wrote, but I'm sure I left some thoughts from my original response out :/

 

[papilio]

PS, the page was refreshed just as I was finishing my initial response, and I couldn't recover it . I did my best to remember what I wrote, but I'm sure I left some thoughts from my original response out :/

Sheesh, yeah what a pain!!

I have read though, that as they grow, they begin to use the hooks on their legs to wrap their legs around whatever they're molting from. I haven't witnessed it, but if that's the case, it may explain why there is such a high incidence of falls in mesh containers (besides not being able to really provide consistent humidity). Because it's so easy for them to hang from the top, they may ignore more appropriate locations elsewhere in the enclosure.

That's quite interesting, and certainly significant! Though I have glued twigs to certain strategic locations within my "molting chamber", for the most part it's lined with foam mesh shelf liner on the ceiling and two opposing walls, a material which I've found gives their tarsal claws a much more easily acquired and secure grip than does the texture of any of the various types of twigs which I've used in their enclosures. During her ordinary moving about the enclosure she has shown a clear preference for the foam over the available twigs. But if, when actually preparing to molt, they require the forms of the twigs in order to do as you describe then I may have to re-think everything about the foam mesh. This mesh does not, however, bear any resemblance to the common cage netting or wire/nylon screening, both of which are known to be very poor choices.

I know that humidity plays a large role in successful molts of large mantises though. With enough moisture in the air to keep the mantis soft, and to lubricate its exit of the exuvia, it means less waving and wiggling, which I would assume drastically reduces the risk of falling. I know it definitely helps to keep slow their hardening reduces the potential for a trapped appendage.

Excellent point! I've read that in nature they tend to molt in the mornings as the lower temps raise the ambient humidity. The same happens of course when the light used to provide a bit of heat to the mantis is turned off ... with the light on and the temps in the upper 80s the humidity it typically at about 60%, but when the light is off and the temps drop to about 75 degrees at night the humidity goes up to about 80%.

I just hope I've set my enclosure up in a way that's conducive to a successful molt....

Boy, same here! But by all accounts it's tricky, even when avoiding known mistakes. I reeely want this molt to be a success!! I remind myself that my male made it through its maturing molt without any modifications to its enclosure (though it did choose to molt too near the ground so I needed to reach in and lift the branch till it was through). But of course the female's body mass will be quite a bit higher.


THANK YOU for the advice and info, those of us keeping Idolos definitely need to keep sharing knowledge and experience!

 

[McGuiverstein]

Hmm, that foam mesh sounds interesting. If it's the texture I'm picturing, I imagine it allows them to dig their tarsal claws into it for better purchase. Would you mind telling me where you found it? It definitely does sound like a much better choice than stuff like nylon or netting. It may not be necessary to completely rethink the foam you're using, as like you said, the male seems to have selected a stick rather than the foam to molt from. Ultimately, it will be up to their discretion, based on their exploration of their container/evaluation of molting locations that will determine where they molt. They have an uncanny ability (most times) to know where they'll have enough space, enough things to grab on to when they get their body out, ect to make a good decision. All we can do is provide them with as many options as possible, so they can choose what's best for them. I made some modifications to my female's enclosure yesterday evening, and took the opportunity to get a few pictures. I'm unable to post anything on here for some reason though. Do you have any suggestions for what to do when the upload freezes after you've selected your file? I'd like to show you a few of my shots, including my third successful pairing of my orchids!

I've always found it interesting that heat and RH have an inverse relationship. The higher the heat, the lower the RH, and the lower the heat, the higher the RH. I'll definitely have to keep that in mind. Maybe I'll make it a point to heavily water her early in the morning when the heat goes off as she's getting close to her molt. That will also be the time the house is most calm, which should definitely help her to maintain focus.

But no problem man, I'm just trying to pass on what little I know. I'm by no means anything close to an expert; I'm just going by what I've read and my experiences keeping other species. I've learned a lot from what you've been saying as well. With species as rare as these, communication is the best possible way to improve the hobby.

 

[papilio]

Hmm, that foam mesh sounds interesting. If it's the texture I'm picturing, I imagine it allows them to dig their tarsal claws into it for better purchase. Would you mind telling me where you found it? It definitely does sound like a much better choice than stuff like nylon or netting. It may not be necessary to completely rethink the foam you're using, as like you said, the male seems to have selected a stick rather than the foam to molt from. Ultimately, it will be up to their discretion, based on their exploration of their container/evaluation of molting locations that will determine where they molt. They have an uncanny ability (most times) to know where they'll have enough space, enough things to grab on to when they get their body out, ect to make a good decision. All we can do is provide them with as many options as possible, so they can choose what's best for them. I made some modifications to my female's enclosure yesterday evening, and took the opportunity to get a few pictures. I'm unable to post anything on here for some reason though. Do you have any suggestions for what to do when the upload freezes after you've selected your file? I'd like to show you a few of my shots, including my third successful pairing of my orchids!

I've always found it interesting that heat and RH have an inverse relationship. The higher the heat, the lower the RH, and the lower the heat, the higher the RH. I'll definitely have to keep that in mind. Maybe I'll make it a point to heavily water her early in the morning when the heat goes off as she's getting close to her molt. That will also be the time the house is most calm, which should definitely help her to maintain focus.

But no problem man, I'm just trying to pass on what little I know. I'm by no means anything close to an expert; I'm just going by what I've read and my experiences keeping other species. I've learned a lot from what you've been saying as well. With species as rare as these, communication is the best possible way to improve the hobby.

You imagine the foam correctly ... it's sold at Walmart and Target as shelf liner. As far as the male successfully molting to maturity, I'd not added the foam nor made any modifications to his enclosure prior to his molt ... it appears that I just got really lucky with that one. It seems that the only poor decision they sometimes make is choosing a molting location too low down, as happened with my male. Other than that I'm sure they know what they're doing and can adapt fairly well as long as the keeper avoids making mistakes in housing materials/construction, mistakes which are by now quite well known if not always followed.

Please try again to post your photos! I always link to flickr or SmugMug so I've never actually uploaded directly to my posts here, so I'm afraid I can't offer any advice there.


So for what it's worth, here's molting vault v3.0. Impressions/comments/critiques welcome!

 

[papilio]

After nearly four months as a sub, my female Idolo finally molted, and it went perfectly! Such a relief ... and even without having gotten her colors yet she is enormous and gorgeous!

Taking photos wasn't really on my mind as I watched, but I did take a few casual shots ...

 

[papilio]

This video was taken the day after she molted. Then just two days later I did the photo shoot below, the increase in adult coloration in such a short time is remarkable ... Idolos typically take about ten days to reach their peak appearance, if mine stays on track she should be quite something a week from now!


[video=youtube;j8rmlGN6VE8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8rmlGN6VE8[/video]

The 720p quality setting gives the best images.

 

[viper69]

Mantids have taken over Flickr!!

I saw the latest pics of your gear, and as soon as I get my adapter for Kodak Polaroid, I'll be whipping out sweet photos like you Michael

On a serious note, my landscape photog. friend said I should pass on the DSLR and get a mirrorless camera instead, what to do.....

 

[papilio]

Mantids have taken over Flickr!!

I saw the latest pics of your gear, and as soon as I get my adapter for Kodak Polaroid, I'll be whipping out sweet photos like you Michael

On a serious note, my landscape photog. friend said I should pass on the DSLR and get a mirrorless camera instead, what to do.....

 

[Tenodera]

Stunning as always! I'm intrigued by the "veins" on the pronotal shield... Anyone know if there's hemolymph in there, or if it's just the structure of the exoskeleton?

 

[viper69]

Do their eyes have a 3D relief to them? Or is that just color giving them a vein-like look?

 

[papilio]

Stunning as always! I'm intrigued by the "veins" on the pronotal shield... Anyone know if there's hemolymph in there, or if it's just the structure of the exoskeleton?

Thanks much Tenodera!

Interesting question ... I'd assume that there is, unlike the wings which (I believe) have the veins only for inflation. But I'll have to ask someone much more mantis-knowledgeable than I.

 

[Biollantefan54]

Wow!!! That blue and green one (Not sure what kind lol) is absolutely **beautiful**! You are making me want mantids more and more! I love your pictures!

 

[papilio]

Do their eyes have a 3D relief to them? Or is that just color giving them a vein-like look?

Visually I believe that it's a very compelling optical illusion, the light areas do appear to be genuinely raised from the surface. But 10X focus stacks which I've taken have shown the surface to be uniform.

Wow!!! That blue and green one (Not sure what kind lol) is absolutely **beautiful**! You are making me want mantids more and more! I love your pictures!

Thanks a lot Biollantefan! Sorry, I should have ID'd it, that's the Idolomantis diabolica. They're brown until their maturing molts ... then they get their wings and incredible colors!

Here she is again just prior to her maturing molt,

 

[Biollantefan54]

It's fine lol!
How easy are these to keep? If I do get into mantids, I am going to first keep my native ones first , just to get the gist. Yours are quite beautiful though.

 

[papilio]

It's fine lol!
How easy are these to keep? If I do get into mantids, I am going to first keep my native ones first , just to get the gist. Yours are quite beautiful though.

Most mantids are extremely easy to keep, the Idolos though are considered one of the most difficult species. Even they are easy until they get really big, then they begin to have fatalities while molting as their tarsal claws are so tiny considering the weight they need to support.

 

[fuzzyavics72]

I just lost my first mantid to feeding it crickets. Apparently, they have a weak immune against those dirty crickets. My wahlbergi are not being fed crickets and are doing well. They're my favorite mantis.

 

[papilio]

I just lost my first mantid to feeding it crickets. Apparently, they have a weak immune against those dirty crickets. My wahlbergi are not being fed crickets and are doing well. They're my favorite mantis.

Sorry to hear that, I too lost my very first mantis (a ghost) because I thought it was alright to feed them crickets. Wahlbergiis are wonderful!