N. americanus breeding

[Wesley Smith]

Most of my N. americanus aren't ready to breed yet and probably won't be for another year at least, but I'm wanting to get as much info as possible to be prepared. All of my N. americanus normals were traded to me as female and I believe that to be true, I believe my albino is also female. I received some tan morph from a local guy for cheap who had no idea what he had, and to be honest, at the time, I didn't really know either. My question is, can I cross morphs or will they not breed? If I breed tan to albino (if said pairing is possible) will I get tan-albino, tan and albino, or albino het tan and or tan het albino like with snakes? I can't find any info on this even though I've tried searching the boards for quite some time. If I just need to buy both males and females of the different morphs, I'm not opposed to that, I'm just curious if crossing the morphs is at all possible and what the effects may be.

 

[MadMilli]

That’s an awesome question, I’ve never dealt with this so I would definitely like to know the answer myself. When I breed, I usually keep my morphs separate because when I see offspring I like to know what morph they are, but I’ve always wondered the same thing. I’ll be watching this!

 

[davehuth]

I can tell you that I've kept Narceus tan morphs for about 7 months, and unexpectedly acquired males of a beautiful medium brown with gold margins. I didn't have another enclosure set up so put the new morphs with the tan, and they began mating immediately. So they at least recognize and appreciate each other

 

[Wesley Smith]

UPDATE: Sadly my tan morph did not make it. I received them in rough condition and then there was a fungus outbreak while I was away for a week so I wasn't able to nip it in the bud, though I'm still curious about this.

 

[ErinM31]

Most of my N. americanus aren't ready to breed yet and probably won't be for another year at least, but I'm wanting to get as much info as possible to be prepared. All of my N. americanus normals were traded to me as female and I believe that to be true, I believe my albino is also female. I received some tan morph from a local guy for cheap who had no idea what he had, and to be honest, at the time, I didn't really know either. My question is, can I cross morphs or will they not breed? If I breed tan to albino (if said pairing is possible) will I get tan-albino, tan and albino, or albino het tan and or tan het albino like with snakes? I can't find any info on this even though I've tried searching the boards for quite some time. If I just need to buy both males and females of the different morphs, I'm not opposed to that, I'm just curious if crossing the morphs is at all possible and what the effects may be.

They can be interbred as they are the same species, but what you will get depends on the specific genes involved. The albino mutation arose in a standard morph population and is recessive — so none of the offspring with a non-albino would have the albino phenotype but if you proceeded to interbreed the offspring, 25% would be albino. As for results from crossing the other morphs, I do not know that anyone has tried and documented the results. I keep my morphs separate but may have to outcries my albino if I cannot locate a male in the next year or so.

Interestingly, it seems that N. americanus can reproduce parthogenically if they mate with N. annularis (presumably any species similar enough to allow mating but which could not produce offspring). @Elytra and Antenna recorded an incident of this and I assume that what occurred with the female N. americanus that I received gravid and all of whose offspring were female.

N. americanus can mature and reproduce in two years, although it may take longer depending on conditions such as population density — mine are not yet at full size. I had misremembered and told you four years, but in reviewing Orin’s millipede book, I see that it is two and they live four additional years thereafter. So breeding may be a ways off but not so long as I was thinking.

 

[ErinM31]

UPDATE: Sadly my tan morph did not make it. I received them in rough condition and then there was a fungus outbreak while I was away for a week so I wasn't able to nip it in the bud, though I'm still curious about this.

Sorry to hear that! I’d be happy to trade you some of my FL morph this fall if you’re interested — I had a small brood last year but this year, more than a hundred! And these will include both male and female!

Narceus americanus millipede

• ErinM31
• Oct 4, 2017
• 7
• americanus milliped millipede narceus pale

This is a lovely pale morph, a translucent gold with bands of rose.

 

[Wesley Smith]

Sorry to hear that! I’d be happy to trade you some of my FL morph this fall if you’re interested — I had a small brood last year but this year, more than a hundred! And these will include both male and female!

Narceus americanus millipede

• ErinM31
• Oct 4, 2017
• 7
• americanus milliped millipede narceus pale

This is a lovely pale morph, a translucent gold with bands of rose.

These look very similar to what I had, though mine were a darker tan. When I received them they were all stuffed in a water bottle and 2 had already died, they lived like that for about 2 weeks before they reached me. I just keep telling myself that they were already dead but I know that isn’t true. I also had a brown morph in there. The guy I got them from is an amature wildlife photographer and only JUST started collecting pedes, he just doesn’t know proper transportation. Now I’ve thoroughly taught him and hopefully if he catches anything else he won’t kill/just about kill them. He’s a great guy who just didn’t know what he was doing.

 

[Exoskelos]

I had a thread similar to this a few months ago about Orthoporus sp. and was told the exact opposite, as in, don't breed morphs. I personally think it would be fine, but you would have to label them as a crossbred morph, and under no circumstances release into the wild.

Wouldn't want to contaminate local populations with a hybrid morph. If, in fact, its ok to breed americanus morphs, then once my tans mature, I'll do some small scale experimenting with different colors. I'll set up small enclosures for a tan male and regular female, and also the inverse, a tan female and regular male.

If they breed and produce a hybrid form, they probably shouldn't be interbred, and if so, the hybrids should be carefully separated from the normal morphs. If a portion of the offspring is one color or the other, then they should be fine.

 

[ErinM31]

I had a thread similar to this a few months ago about Orthoporus sp. and was told the exact opposite, as in, don't breed morphs. I personally think it would be fine, but you would have to label them as a crossbred morph, and under no circumstances release into the wild.

Wouldn't want to contaminate local populations with a hybrid morph. If, in fact, its ok to breed americanus morphs, then once my tans mature, I'll do some small scale experimenting with different colors. I'll set up small enclosures for a tan male and regular female, and also the inverse, a tan female and regular male.

If they breed and produce a hybrid form, they probably shouldn't be interbred, and if so, the hybrids should be carefully separated from the normal morphs. If a portion of the offspring is one color or the other, then they should be fine.

True, I would recommend against doing so when there is a natural population — as in every case except the albino. I confess I focused my answer on whether one could rather than whether or not one should. I definitely agree with you and would discourage crossing morphs. The exception is when one is isolating a morph from a population — as with the albino; in such cases it may be desirable to backcross with the original wild-type stock.

 

[ErinM31]

These look very similar to what I had, though mine were a darker tan. When I received them they were all stuffed in a water bottle and 2 had already died, they lived like that for about 2 weeks before they reached me. I just keep telling myself that they were already dead but I know that isn’t true. I also had a brown morph in there. The guy I got them from is an amature wildlife photographer and only JUST started collecting pedes, he just doesn’t know proper transportation. Now I’ve thoroughly taught him and hopefully if he catches anything else he won’t kill/just about kill them. He’s a great guy who just didn’t know what he was doing.

Sorry to hear about the millipedes but very glad you educated him on these lovely creatures!

 

[Exoskelos]

True, I would recommend against doing so when there is a natural population — as in every case except the albino. I confess I focused my answer on whether one could rather than whether or not one should. I definitely agree with you and would discourage crossing morphs. The exception is when one is isolating a morph from a population — as with the albino; in such cases it may be desirable to backcross with the original wild-type stock.

It may be a good idea to determine if the color morphs are actually different species, or if they are simply divergent from the typical colors. As far as I know, that would seem to be the only barrier to crossing the morphs, the risk of a hybrid species. If they were the same species, could it be safe to cross them and if so, would it be worthwhile to send various morphs in for identification? Of course, still following the same safety protocol as if they were a hybrid, to safeguard native populations.

 

[ErinM31]

It may be a good idea to determine if the color morphs are actually different species, or if they are simply divergent from the typical colors. As far as I know, that would seem to be the only barrier to crossing the morphs, the risk of a hybrid species. If they were the same species, could it be safe to cross them and if so, would it be worthwhile to send various morphs in for identification? Of course, still following the same safety protocol as if they were a hybrid, to safeguard native populations.

Surely they would already have been named as different species if they were? From what I’ve seen, scientists usually err in the other direction with more species designations being made than actually exist and eventually synonymized. With small millipedes that look identical having been identified as separate species (the Euryurids, for example), I would be shocked if large relatively common millipedes with obvious differences in appearance would not have been if indeed they were different species. I hope that made sense! Of course, all that proves nothing, but, I would be astounded...

I think the main concern is mixing up existing morphs and wild populations — we want to maintain those. And if you made such a cross and they looked like one parent, it would not be right to sell them as such — people should know what they’re getting and what they’re breeding!

Send the millipedes to whom? I would agree it worthwhile (and not just for the N. americanus morphs) if there was someone willing and able to make positive species identification.

 

[Exoskelos]

Surely they would already have been named as different species if they were? From what I’ve seen, scientists usually err in the other direction with muore species designations being made than actually exist and eventually synonymized. With small millipedes that look identical having been identified as separate species (the Euryurids, for example), I would be shocked if large relatively common millipedes with obvious differences in appearance would not have been if indeed they were different species. I hope that made sense! Of course, all that proves nothing, but, I would be astounded...

I think the main concern is mixing up existing morphs and wild populations — we want to maintain those. And if you made such a cross and they looked like one parent, it would not be right to sell them as such — people should know what they’re getting and what they’re breeding!

Send the millipedes to whom? I would agree it worthwhile (and not just for the N. americanus morphs) if there was someone willing and able to make positive species identification.

Millipedes are one of the most understudied animal groups though, it wouldn't surprise me if half of the color morphed millipedes in the Narceus genus, assumed to be americanus, are actually unrecorded or unrecognized species of their own. And of course, due to the limited dispersal powers of millipedes, it is easy for groups of them to become geographically isolated from bulk populations. Perhaps some of them are not new species yet, but definitely could be splitting off as the beginnings of some. It takes a long time for that to happen, and I haven't studied up on it much.
A lot of these color morphs are found in extremely limited/hard to access areas, and its unlikely they have seen any official observation by scientists. The only real attention millipedes get as far as I know, is by us hobbyists and breeders. If there are any active studies being done, they must be keeping it to themselves.

I'm not saying crossing them to sell, but as an experimental sort of thing. And euthanizing the offspring of such crosses if they are hybrids, to prevent contamination of wild populations. If they turned as one parent or another, continue to breed them to see if they are even fertile, and if the color variation extends to further generations. I definitely agree with keeping experimental populations separate from others, and if selling them, labeling them as such and warning buyers they could be hybrids, although I would discourage selling potentially hybridized species.

I'm not sure where to send them, myself. If it was easy to find someone willing to identify them officially, I would have done so already. Of course if its a simple matter that can be done with a regular microscope, anyone could probably do it, but things like that have to be certified or authorized by the appropriate people. Meaning that individual identification is useless without the requisite credentials.

 

[ErinM31]

Millipedes are one of the most understudied animal groups though, it wouldn't surprise me if half of the color morphed millipedes in the Narceus genus, assumed to be americanus, are actually unrecorded or unrecognized species of their own. And of course, due to the limited dispersal powers of millipedes, it is easy for groups of them to become geographically isolated from bulk populations. Perhaps some of them are not new species yet, but definitely could be splitting off as the beginnings of some. It takes a long time for that to happen, and I haven't studied up on it much.
A lot of these color morphs are found in extremely limited/hard to access areas, and its unlikely they have seen any official observation by scientists. The only real attention millipedes get as far as I know, is by us hobbyists and breeders. If there are any active studies being done, they must be keeping it to themselves.

I'm not saying crossing them to sell, but as an experimental sort of thing. And euthanizing the offspring of such crosses if they are hybrids, to prevent contamination of wild populations. If they turned as one parent or another, continue to breed them to see if they are even fertile, and if the color variation extends to further generations. I definitely agree with keeping experimental populations separate from others, and if selling them, labeling them as such and warning buyers they could be hybrids, although I would discourage selling potentially hybridized species.

I'm not sure where to send them, myself. If it was easy to find someone willing to identify them officially, I would have done so already. Of course if its a simple matter that can be done with a regular microscope, anyone could probably do it, but things like that have to be certified or authorized by the appropriate people. Meaning that individual identification is useless without the requisite credentials.

It is true that millipedes are woefully understudied! As you’ve pointed out, the isolated color morphs may be in the process of speciation, which is another reason to preserve this diversity in my opinion.

It is debatable whether hybrids should be sold at all but for sure not if they are phenotypically indistinguishable from one of the parents! You may give full information to the buyer, but will they keep track of this and what will they eventually do with the millipedes?

As for species identification, I believe this can only be done by dissection of the male genitalia. Furthermore, I believe even the experts debate on what differences warrant separate species designation, etc.

 

[Exoskelos]

It is true that millipedes are woefully understudied! As you’ve pointed out, the isolated color morphs may be in the process of speciation, which is another reason to preserve this diversity in my opinion.

It is debatable whether hybrids should be sold at all but for sure not if they are phenotypically indistinguishable from one of the parents! You may give full information to the buyer, but will they keep track of this and what will they eventually do with the millipedes?

As for species identification, I believe this can only be done by dissection of the male genitalia. Furthermore, I believe even the experts debate on what differences warrant separate species designation, etc.

Exactly. The selling and breeding of color morphs is one of those "I'm reponsible for what I do, not what others do" sort of thing. Once a morph goes off to an expo or sold to people that might lump them in with a dozen other types, all notions of morph purity become nothing but claims. Unless the chain of where it was found and who it passed to can be verified, the morphs already circulating could even be hybrids themselves.

I think its important to keep controlled enclaves aside from wild populations, it's one of my big arguments for why zoos shouldn't be banned, but also it is important to remember that local extinctions can be caused by overcollecting. I would like to think that if certain groups of animals became locally extinct, private breeders would voluntarily release a portion of captive bred animals back into their native habitat. It's what I would do, if I could verify the animals were descended from original specimens, with no mixes from other morphs.