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Discussion in 'Tarantula Questions & Discussions' started by toenailsoup, Nov 6, 2018.
Are you planning on providing proof of that statement?
@boina ... any input on this?
There’s plenty of material out there for you to read yourself. Also videos of experiences on the matter. Go to a library, use the search function on safari or whatever web browser you use, even here on the board as this isn’t a “new” thing.
You must not be familiar with how burden of proof works.
Look it up there’s your proof
It would probably be a lot easier for you to dig up your sources, considering you are already familiar with them. Sending someone who disagrees with you to find proof of your claim is a bit silly.
I've seen plenty of anecdotal stories about mold in the book lungs, but never any actual evidence. Just did a search myself, couldn't find anything but anecdotes and guesses. If you have some primary literature, that'd be wonderful - it means I'd learn something new today
Mold growing in book lungs is an old myth that won't die down. NO, mold cannot grow in book lung, at least not as long as the spider is healthy. Spiders have an immune system that's very efficient against mold, because mold is a very common factor in their natural environment. They simply wouldn't be able to survive without a very good protection against mold.
@8LeggedLair is confusing anecdotes with proof - and using anecdotes to argue against established science. The next point in science: You need to establish a real causal relationship. If a dead spider is found with mold in it's book lungs that doesn't mean it died from the mold. It only means a dying spider got mold in its book lungs because its defenses were compromised.
Oh, and @8LeggedLair - before you tell me I need to do more research: I'm a microbiologist scientist who's been working in immunology for several years. This is a topic I've researched extensively. It's you who needs to do some real reasearch, as in learning to distinguish between science and 'what people say'.
I’m not saying this TRUTH or it’s a science I do not want nor have i ever had mold in any of my enclosures. You can checkout the common ailments of Captive Care of Invertebrates, which i just found. There’s several sites. I didn’t glance at it however.
I do have a book on mold which tells the differences and the different types of mold... It was for biology class a very long time ago, however the preventive care on it still stands today... to prevent mold outbreak is of course ventilation in an area that is moist or wet.....
If you have mold in a Tarantula enclosure then I would remove the T and clean the entire enclosure and not use the wood if there was again even if cleaned. Cork bark is cheap.
Some people though confuse fungi and mold. Most Fungi isn’t harmful to Tarantulas in a captive environment that I am aware of, however Cordyceps is a very Parasitic Fungus and is certain death of the invertebrate that it comes into contact with. However IF I notice Mushrooms or Fuzzy white, green, grey, yellow mold growing I am removing it that’s all there is to it.
I like for the most part how most everyone seems they’re some sort of professional scientist on this board... when we’re all here for the same reasons GIVING OUR EXPERIENCES which I’ve stated above about HOW I DO things...
Yes a Tarantula absolutely CAN get mold in its book lungs if exposed long enough to said outbreak... don’t believe me, do it yourself... let mold grow in your T’s Enclosure and do nothing about it, once that mold becomes frivolous and no longer moistened, but dusty to the touch meaning it goes airborne, your T will be walking through it, dragging its abdomen in it eating its prey on it or around it. Then it will eventually die... but I guess the professionals here will say it’s DKS...
Go to the library and check it out it’s a good read...
I majored in microbiology as well
I have mold in several enclosures and I've had it for years. The tarantulas don't die, they are perfectly fine. Cleaning out an enclosure with mold is useless and overkill. If you are going on a cleaning spree at every sight of mold, fine, but I'm not going to sit by and let you teach this to newbies without challenging it. Tarantulas can live in moldy enclosures for years and be perfectly fine. They have specialized cells, called hemocytes, and antimicrobial peptides for defense against bacteria and fungus. Again: There is no scientifically sound proof that mold is harmful.
Look, if you are a microbiologist, you really should get some things straight: mold and fungus is biologically the same, mushrooms are the fruiting bodies of some fungus. Cordyceps is a very rare parasite that you won't get in your enclosures because those are spores that are not just around in the air.
I am not sure if you read what I say or not...
I have never had mold in any of my enclosures...
why is it that on other posts YOU yourself also say mold is bad?
Like I said as well previously when talking about Fungi isn’t harmless that i know of to invertebrates, then also said that there is the parasitic fungus known as Cordyceps..
you can do a search a keeper had his Tarantula infected with Cordyceps, so yes it absolutely can, since you were/are/studied microbiology then you yourself can not rule out the possibility of a Tarantula dying from frivolous mold that is no longer moistened that’s not how microbiologists or scientists operate, there is always an assumption and possibility dealing with Micro-organisms...let those dusty spores get in your T’s book lungs..
but anywho I digress. Have a wonderful day
I like gow your claim is to "do it yourself" for everything, as if it is something no one would ever attempt. I have plenty of enclosures with various molds/fungi in them... and the Ts are perfectly fine.
So you've never had mold in any of your enclosures, but you are making all these claims about how harmful it is and how we should "try it ourselves"... yet you have no firsthand experience with it yourself?? You are basing everything you say off other peoples' claims, and ignoring those of us with actual mold experience. Interesting method...
Well, you are having a discussion with a working scientist, and you yourself claim to be one as well. So I was honestly hoping for more information regarding my request for sources. Instead, the reply boiled down to more anecdotes.
That being said, here is my anecdote. The majority of my humid enclosures have mold. Several have sprouting mushrooms right now. You bring up mold that is allowed to dry out - several of my Brachypelma species are in this exact situation, and have been for years. So in my case at least, I see no evidence of mold causing issues.
Because I read, and observe other people’s experiences with said problems or not... myself and all my friends and acquaintances do not like mold in our enclosures. I haven’t had the experience with dealing with mold thankfully mainly because I do not give them the most natural organic environment inside their enclosure...
Mostly it’s because there’s an argument saying oh no it’s fine, and the other ( me )
Is saying nope never in mine.
I get scrutinized and condemned to the wolves for saying nope I will not allow mold in my T’s enclosures.... I am not a scientist I only Majored in Microbiology...
No, you're being scrutinized because you are claiming expertise on something you have zero actual experience with.
Nope, just don’t want mold in any of my containers... have fun with that.
First and foremost:
I initially read that as "You need to establish a CASUAL relationship" and became very confused
Now on to the main discussion:
So then ventilation is key in reducing mold growth (although that doesn't completely prevent it)
But since many species require more moisture than others, that would mean essentially doing a rehouse so often that it would never be able to establish a proper home for itself. If I did that, my A. seemani and N. chromatus would have never made homes and would be constantly stressed
Not cheap enough that I'd be willing to toss it out and buy more any time I had any mold in an enclosure
Have you ever had that happen to you? Or do you have a specific source that proves without a doubt that mold developed inside the booklungs of a healthy spider, or caused the death of an otherwise healthy spider? While I do think it's possible for a spider to develop mold in its booklungs, I only think it would be possible in a spider that is very unhealthy and being kept in poor conditions without enough ventilation.
All the "professionals" on here have been dispelling the DKS myth since before I was even a member on here (which admittedly isn't a long time, but I can't account for what they were doing before I joined, since I wasn't there)
I have a hard time believing that @boina of all people would ever just make a blanket statement that "mold is bad". What was the scenario? Was there mold in the enclosure of an arid species? Was there not enough ventilation/too much moisture so that the air was stagnant and too much mold and bacterial growth was possible? Do you happen to remember the exact thread?
Why is it that it's possible that she (and everyone else saying a little mold is harmless) is wrong, but not possible for you to be wrong? Objectivity is important with proper unbiased research. If you seek a certain result, the evidence will be skewed. Many on here are asking for you to provide specific sources so that they can look into it and reach conclusions for themselves. As far as I can remember, boina has always been willing to provide sources for her statements. You're just being held to the same standards to establish credibility.
It's not that you're being scrutinized for not allowing mold to grow. The scrutiny (at least in my case) is directed more at the fact that you're fearmongering and drastically overplaying the dangers of mold, but not addressing the reason. Too much mold is the effect; Inadequate ventilation and/or too much moisture is the cause. If those issues are kept in check to prevent stagnant unhealthy air, the mold can't reach a dangerous level. The stagnant, moist air causes a prime habitat for mold and bacteria, which affects the spider and weakens it's defense against the mold, which can then possibly start growing in the booklungs. But that would be an already unhealthy, dying, or dead spider. It's the same principle as a person with a weakened immune system getting sicker from a cold than a healthy person.
I'm not trying to be rude or seem like I'm attacking you or anything. I'm just pointing out some of my own opinions, observations, and such.
Like I said, I do not have mold nor will I have mold in my enclosures, if you want it and you have it, great good for you.
I will not tolerate growth of fungi and mold with my animals... you can be as rude as you want I am not made of glass nor will words upset me...
I do not keep species that needs more moisture than others, I am hardly ever home in begin with to monitor if there were an outbreak.
I keep Terrestrials that require mostly dry substrate NW’s and OW’s...
They are probably saying there’s nothing wrong with mold ( which there isn’t when the mold is moist, once the mold becomes dried out and flaky, is where it CAN become a problem ) because in their own experience they haven’t had a problem yet with mold... I just will not have said mold in my enclosures period...
Well where I am from Cork Bark costs 7,99€ for 1kg bag of various sizes.
Just bought 6 slabs 12in x 12in for 3,99 a piece, 3 tubes 8in long with 3in diameter for 2,99 a piece pretty cheap for me.