MM's without tibial hooks?

[Swoop]

I got a mystery spider off Craigslist the other day that appears to be a MM but has no tibial hooks. Posting here and on Facebook hasn't provided a solid ID (can't get good enough pictures) but I did learn that N. carapoensis doesn't mature with hooks so that seems like the best bet so far.

What other species don't get hooks? And in particular, any other all-black species?

 

[sdsnybny]

https://tarantulaforum.com/threads/male-tarantulas-lacking-tibial-hooks-spurs.4714/

 

[KezyGLA]

Photo ?

 

[Swoop]

https://tarantulaforum.com/threads/male-tarantulas-lacking-tibial-hooks-spurs.4714/

Wow that is a lot more then I expected

 

[Swoop]

Photo ?

Best one I've been able to get. This is with flash (says a lot about my phone camera right?). All black.

 

[Nightstalker47]

Poeciletheria do not have tibial hooks. Neither do most arboreals actually, the majority of NW terrestrials do have them.

I would focus more on emboli if you want to determine whether or not a male is mature. It's the most reliable method.

Best one I've been able to get. This is with flash (says a lot about my phone camera right?). All black. View attachment 256618

You need a photo of the underside of it's pedipalps, that's where the emboli is located. But that does look like it may be a mature male.

 

[Swoop]

Even if I could I don't think my camera would be clear enough to make out emboli. My camera focuses like a genic turns down food

Not trying to be difficult, I just don't have good equipment.

 

[darkness975]

Even if I could I don't think my camera would be clear enough to make out emboli. My camera focuses like a genic turns down food

Not trying to be difficult, I just don't have good equipment.

Shine a flashlight on it while taking the picture, specifically an LED flashlight. The increase in light should hopefully compensate for the lack of quality on the camera itself and make for a better image.

 

[Andrea82]

Wow that is a lot more then I expected

A lot of those species have been reorganized taxonomicly as well, which is not helping as well.
@sdsnybny fascinating names on that list though. The names they came up with in the past...

 

[Andrea82]

If i compare the picture and apply the list of Steve, could it be a Hysterocrates hercules?
@Swoop, what's the temperament like?

 

[Poec54]

There's a couple dozen genera of tarantulas in which mature males don't have tibial spurs, both old and new world. You're much better off looking for shorter palps and emboli. Also, the generis term 'hooked out' needs to fall out of use, as it's usually indiscriminately used by beginners for all adult male tarantulas. I remember seeing a classified ad here where someone had a 'hooked out' male Poecilotheria for sale. I told him to hang on to it and sell it to a museum, because it's the only male Poecilotheria in the world with tibial spurs.

 

[Swoop]

He's pretty chill. I chased him around my bathtub a few minutes trying to get pics. He wasn't as skittish as other MM's I've had and he didn't throw any threat postures.

 

[cold blood]

There's a couple dozen genera of tarantulas in which mature males don't have tibial spurs, both old and new world. You're much better off looking for shorter palps and emboli. Also, the generis term 'hooked out' needs to fall out of use, as it's usually indiscriminately used by beginners for all adult male tarantulas. I remember seeing a classified ad here where someone had a 'hooked out' male Poecilotheria for sale. I told him to hang on to it and sell it to a museum, because it's the only male Poecilotheria in the world with tibial spurs.

completely agree....i dont understand this fascination with hooks....emboli are on the same place on every MM.

 

[Swoop]

Same reason people try to vent-sex I guess. Emboli and molts are better but vent-sexing and hooks are easier/faster.

 

[Poec54]

Same reason people try to vent-sex I guess. Emboli and molts are better but vent-sexing and hooks are easier/faster.

Not really. Emboli are the determining factor for hobbyists, and they're always viewable on an adult male. Vent sexing is popular because you can do it anytime, all you need is a deli cup and a flashlight. If you insist on molt sexing, sometimes you can wait many months, and longer if the spider tears up the shed before you can get to it. I see molt sexing as the definitive way to sex immatures, but if you can't wait 6 months to find out, suddenly vent sexing can become very appealing. Like when you're buying or selling & want to know what they are. Molt sexing on the spot like that? Yeah right.

Look at enough sexing pics in a picture gallery and eventually you'll develop a feel for it. That's how I learned. Poecs are easy as their fur is short, and they're also my favorite genus, so after doing it for a while, I'm usually about 90% accurate with them. For other genera, I run around 70-80%. Often at 2" you can get a good idea of a tarantula's sex by checking it's vent. Problem with a lot of pics is that they're out of focus and have glare, so they're a waste of everyone's time. Clear, well-lit shots, from a few angles, are what's needed.

 

[cold blood]

Emboli and molts are better but vent-sexing and hooks are easier/faster.

Emboli are way more obvious on most ts than are hooks.

 

[Swoop]

You ever take philosophy?

Emboli are a necessary condition. Hooks are a sufficient condition. On females, spermathecae are necessary but an egg sac is sufficient.

Hooks are 100% accurate. Emboli are 100% accurate. Spermathecae are 100% accurate. Sacs are 100% accurate. It's the no-hooks, no-emboli, no-spermathecae, no-sac attempts to sex where the problems come up.

 

[Swoop]

Emboli are way more obvious on most ts than are hooks.

I have an admittedly smaller number of MM's from which to draw experience from, but in mine it's much easier to get a look at the underside of a T's legs than their palps. Hooks are obvious from many more angles and even in the dark. And, you don't need any experience to recognize hooks.

Palps? Newbs don't know what the underside of palps are supposed to look like. The whole point of this thread is so I, a newb, can figure out which T MM's can be ID'd by hooks and which can only be ID'd by palps.

 

[cold blood]

I have an admittedly smaller number of MM's from which to draw experience from, but in mine it's much easier to get a look at the underside of a T's legs than their palps. Hooks are obvious from many more angles and even in the dark. And, you don't need any experience to recognize hooks.

Palps? Newbs don't know what the underside of palps are supposed to look like. The whole point of this thread is so I, a newb, can figure out which T MM's can be ID'd by hooks and which can only be ID'd by palps.

In time you will just recognize the general body changes, this is what will lead you to even look.

As for what the palps should or shouldn't look like...the change is a very obvious one, prior the ends of the palps look just like the ends of a foot.

You can certainly look wherever you want though, I was just trying to help with the kind of info I would have wanted to know.

 

[Swoop]

In time you will just recognize the general body changes, this is what will lead you to even look.

Yeah, the way my mystery T moved and acted made me think MM. But this was supposed to help me narrow down potential ID's until sdsnybny pointed out there are 101 T's who don't have hooks as MM.

As for what the palps should or shouldn't look like...the change is a very obvious one, prior the ends of the palps look just like the ends of a foot.

You can certainly look wherever you want though, I was just trying to help with the kind of info I would have wanted to know.

I'm not trying to be difficult although I'm sure it seems that way I appreciate the info. This is (probably) my 4th MM, he wasn't identified correctly by the seller and I can't get a good look or picture. I've read that 'some' T's don't grow hooks which made me think oh, probably like ten species right? No... Way more than that...