Messed up claw, disease? Injury?

[FrankiePinchinatti]

So I just checked on my h. troglodytes and noticed that one of them has had their claw turn brown and it looks like he can't use it anymore. I'm really confused by what is going on. He doesn't do anything so I can't imagine how he would be able to injure it so I am leaning towards a disease, but has anyone ever seen anything like this?

 

[Outpost31Survivor]

I have no clue, you may try the search function here. I would imagine mycosis would be dark not light but it looks like you are keeping the substrate dry.

 

[Liquifin]

I'm not the most experienced with scorps so I can't say too much besides keeping an eye out on her behaviors and if she eats well. Also it's a she and not a he.

 

[AzJohn]

I can't be 100% certain without seeing the scorpion, but I've seen a scorpions that had the claw die while still attached. I would assume a disease or some sort of injury. The claw drains and dries out while still attached to the scorpion. The insides are hollow.

 

[Outpost31Survivor]

So I just checked on my h. troglodytes and noticed that one of them has had their claw turn brown and it looks like he can't use it anymore. I'm really confused by what is going on. He doesn't do anything so I can't imagine how he would be able to injure it so I am leaning towards a disease, but has anyone ever seen anything like this?

I found something very interesting on the old defunct American Tarantula Society forum in the ninth paragraph in JMB's response:

Hi Ricardo,

You are asking an exceptionally important question...And one more difficult, and complex, than you may realize ;\

At least I can say that *I* didn't even realize the extent, scope and sheer, mind-boggling complexity when it comes to (shudder) fungal pathogens of arthropods. I shudder because, if I SEE the words "entomogenous fungi" one more time, I think I'll vomit.

Seriously, though: after having spent an inordinate amount of time both via phone and other communications with:

-Insect/Arthropod Pathologists;
-Chemists;
-Mycologists;
-Biologists of every shape & description & speciality (including certain .Mil researchers, no less)

I did not fully grasp the gravity of things until I stumbled upon ARSEF, who are at Cornell U, working under the Aegis of the USDA (among others).

They are the ATCC of Entomogenous/Entomopathogenic fungi (EF for short). They have a database and sample cultures of every type they can get their hands on. I spoke w/a mycologist there who specializes in fungal pathogens (urk) of arthropods including spiders, insects, etcetera, and while I'd already begun to get the picture of just what an Unholy task it was to fight mycotic issues regarding scorpions/tarantulas, it was during my phone conversation with him (wherein I mostly shut up and let him do the brain drain - rare for me, as many can attest), that my understanding of the situation really got kicked a few light years ahead.

In brief, seeing black spots on scorpion X is (generally) indicative of mycosis, but (unless the black spots 'smear', which means it is a collection of conidae/sporulation by the fungi in question) essentially is nothing more than melanization of the cuticle in *response* to fungus Y...Or Fungus A, B, C...You get the picture.

Oftentimes, the EF is deliberately inducing melanization -- getting the host to grant it protection from harmful UVA/B rays, so it cannot be sterilized as easily. Beyond that, without having properly cultured the samples (which I can & am doing), and then having them identified by those qualified to do so (which I most certainly am *not*), and who have the appropriate equipment (...), there is no way of saying with ANY degree of certainty whether or not a Tarantula who has just up & died for no reason after year(s) of health ran afoul of something merely opportunistic (e.g., Fusarium & penicillium are the two most common groups of fungi found across the planet, as I understand it) just as a mild cold or flu could kill an immuno-compromised person, or if they are truly under attack by something which is not merely an EF when it can be, but one dedicated solely to that purpose, and therefore very specialized and difficult to eradicate (e.g., Beauveria et al).

Identification of B. bassiana and the associated EF's isn't too hard, and IIRC, you don't even need an oil-immersion microscope to get things down to genus (though you might for speciation); external signs are cordyceps-similar, where the mycelium sucks all the resources up into the body, leaving all the limbs hollow & dessicated, and with external bodies (id est, white growth, but not visibly long filamentous-type, but densely packed hyphal growth: it appears to the naked eye as a white covering/slightly fuzzy); at this point, conidae production & release has begun, and note that most strains of Beauveria are tailored to be VERY LETHAL (100%, ideally) to arthropods -- so DO NOT let any active sporulations occur remotely near others you have that you want to keep.

Long story short: after getting a number of mycotic specimens delivered to me for a hefty sum (nevermind even asking), I began to study & look into this, as what can be quantified can be treated. Fast-forward to now: I realize that I began digging out what I thought merely a small rock which it turns out is really a mountaintop, the rest buried from view: as the scope of nastiness I've discovered has only grown (I even now know FAR more about Tarantulas than before -- something I had little interest in studying, being mostly into scorpions), and after the input I've received from the rarest of rare types (experts in Mycology AND entomology), my determination has only grown, as well, as I now am realizing something which I don't think that many people have put together: that the odds are a LOT of 'unexplained' fatalities in otherwise healthy-appearing T's and scorps is due to Fungal Pathogens (now vomiting, sorry).

To wrap up: I am currently working on finding a fungicidal compound which is NOT insecticidal, and which can be administered *internally* to the invert so infected. While I appreciate all contributions of information, I'm sad to say that Methyl Paraben (CAS# 99-76-3) is, externally/topically applied, NOT adequate for the variety of Fung -- ehr, FP, for short -- which afflict inverts, by design or merely opportunistically.

As the parabens *are* Mostly Harmless, and the levels at which they are fungicidal and at which they are insecticidal are orders of magnitude apart (think 0.02% versus 2%), I am hazarding a guess that moving up the Alkyl chain is a viable possibility, as polar solubility drops, and bioavailability (should) drop, as well.

Imidazole-derivatives (e.g., tioconozole/miconazole nitrate and the like) while topically effective, are not the answer, as I cannot administer internally enough to wipe out the pathogen w/o going high enough for the invert toxicity to be an issue. Other fungicides, based on chitin/chitosan inhibitors (IIRC) are also, for obvious reasons, a no-go.

Why internally? Because, as I've been told now many times, the moment the hyphae complete penetration of the cuticle and make it to the haemolymph, well, that's that: Invert X now has that FP forever, like permanent baggage, herpes-style. Depending upon a number of factors (toxins produced, virulence of the fungus itself, host-targeting, etcetera) means the difference between the defensins being adequate to keep it in check with no further ill effects for the rest of its life, or death within 1-3 days from the first appearance of a single black-spot on one limb.

Sorry for the lack of a good answer, but this is what I've got so far. If interested, and if you have further information to contribute, please do put it forward: I'm going to be setting up another page on a server which will have a comprehensive (and PROPERLY - feh - SSL'd poll which I'm going to solicit for people who keep inverts to fill out in an attempt to gather further information pertaining to FP/EF and its impact on captive inverts (and this alone -- this isn't an attempt to garner spammer-type info, I assure you).

I'm more usually contactable via phone, so if you PM me, I'm happy to give you that number -- or do a WHOIS on my domain(s), as that is the correct number (or should be).

Sorry this is more of a rant than an answer. When I have more info, I'll be sharing it, not to worry, probably in a published study, due to ARSEF's interest.

Take care,


~JMB

http://atshq.org/boards/viewtopic.php?t=15814

 

[FrankiePinchinatti]

Oh wow, that response is pretty frightening, hopefully that's not what I have here.

 

[Outpost31Survivor]

Oh wow, that response is pretty frightening, hopefully that's not what I have here.

Yeah I hope this is not case either. I did do a search and found a thread where another member of this community had to amputate a flat rock scorpion's claw. It fully recovered and he has even bred it since.

On another note: we might have identified the culprit behind the hollow claws. I have never seen or heard of this terrible affliction before.

 

[FrankiePinchinatti]

So I have an update. She molted and either the claw had dissolved away and gone hollow or she was able to drop it during the molting process. Either way, she seems pretty active and feisty with her one remaining claw, I'll toss in a roach and see if she is able to feed herself.

 

[Dr SkyTower]

She should be able to live comfortably with just the one claw... its a bit of a shame they don't grow back. At least whatever it was that caused it to die didn't also cause her to die.