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Members of same brood reproduce

Discussion in 'Scorpions' started by Scorpusvonpork, Jul 15, 2017 at 11:14 AM.

  1. Scorpusvonpork

    Scorpusvonpork Arachnopeon Active Member

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    What happens if members of the same brood reproduce? Is it an issue like it is among vertebrate life? I can't imagine scorpions get away to far from their colonies in the wild to mate.
     
  2. Stenodactylus

    Stenodactylus Arachnopeon Active Member

    Hmm, I am no expert on this area. I have heard from multiple breeders that inbreeding causes lines to go to pot. I'm not sure though. @gromgrom @ArachnoDrew @brandontmyers, thoughts?
     
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  3. Extensionofgreen

    Extensionofgreen Arachnosquire Active Member

    Invertebrates are less susceptible to inbreeding, but it still limits their genetic diversity. Genetic diversity ensures disease resistance, prevents the reinforcement of undesirable genetic anomalies, and allows for the development of stronger populations, in and out of captivity. That said, certain color morphs and species got to be that way by being very isolated and breeding within a very small population base. I suspect you will get multiple opinions, here, but I am in the camp that breeding siblings weakens the lines, 3-5 generations in and that providing new genetics to breeding projects keeps captive populations strong and more predictable.
     
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  4. Johnny Spadix

    Johnny Spadix Arachnoknight Active Member

    Yes...u better take some fresh blood after a certain amount of time.
    Centruroides sp. for example can have two metasoma:
    [​IMG]
     
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  5. ArachnoDrew

    ArachnoDrew Arachnoangel Active Member

    WWWHOOOOAAAAA LOL
     
  6. Galapoheros

    Galapoheros ArachnoGod Old Timer

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    I'd call that an improvement haha. imo I think the inbreeding scare is over-done. A problem with captive breed over several generations might be that there isn't the "survival of the fittest" happening in nature, so the less favorable genes tend to be passed on. But let one pair of roaches, one gravid scorpion, tarantula, etc., loose on an island with available food and environment it can tolerate, it would likely be there for 1000s of years until something wiped it out.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2017 at 10:15 PM
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  7. Extensionofgreen

    Extensionofgreen Arachnosquire Active Member

    I agree that survival of the fittest play a role. If a small population is introduced to a new environment, small variations in their DNA will occur over time, as they move into habitats with varying prey types and quantities, chemical/sun/and other forms of exposure, and other types of variations will accumulate over time and impact the genetic profile of the different populations that radiate out from the original. This happening, along with survival and reproduction of the strongest individuals will contribute a very viable population. This doesn't translate the same way in a captive situation, however. There isn't enough cullling or exposure to diseases to weed out weaker individuals and there is not enough variables in the captive diet and environment to create the genetic drift that might help keep a small population genetically viable.
     
  8. You could have a scorpion who's great grand daddy was on the Ark...
     
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  9. spotropaicsav

    spotropaicsav Arachnoknight Active Member

    Wow, thanks for posting the pic, is this one of your specimens? If so, did it have alot of functional limitations with this?
     
  10. gromgrom

    gromgrom Arachnoprince Active Member

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    My gracilis colony is collapsing after 4-5 generations of inbreeding. Some species fail faster than others, but you need genetic diversity. The issue is that there's such little supply of fresh blood of non-natives in the US hobby circulating, combined with not anyone doing breeding loans, will culminate in non-US, non-parthogenetic scorpion blood lines eventually running dry if people dont continue to import more blood in. Luckily, some are, and I'm personally trying to inject fresh blood into my bloodlines legally.
     
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  11. Galapoheros

    Galapoheros ArachnoGod Old Timer

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    We have to react to our best speculation but the reason for any breeding problems here can't be linked to hard fact data having to do with inbreeding unless increased deformities expressing a pattern are recorded. Other than that, reasons "why" are going to be speculations but speculation is important. There may be some kind of pheromones they react to, making them less enthusiastic to breed with siblings, I can relate(badump, tshhhhh). Generations from other broods in the same line are going to be more genetically diff, maybe not so much 'diverse' but different, so if there is some kind of pheromone they react to, I'd try to go that route to see what happened there. Are they breeding less or breeding but not having babies, what's the deal there?
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2017 at 3:27 PM
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  12. RTTB

    RTTB Arachnoangel Active Member

    Very interesting topic.
     
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  13. Stugy

    Stugy Arachnobaron Active Member

    Hmmm. Would it be possible to create new bloodlines? Like "separating the scorpions and putting them in different conditions forcing them to genetically adapt to the new environment" kinda thing? Maybe? I'm wondering this as there are some species that are rather hard to obtain such as the genus Grosphus. Currently the only person I know who breeds this would be William King. I am not sure if he keeps his colonies diverse or not (will ask him in a bit). I might've sounded like a complete idiot but whatever ;)
     
  14. RTTB

    RTTB Arachnoangel Active Member

    If they start drooling and chasing their tails nonstop that might be a sign of too much inbreeding.
     
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  15. Extensionofgreen

    Extensionofgreen Arachnosquire Active Member

    Genetic variations occur over generations, with subtle environmental factors having minute impacts on the DNA and expression of traits. Raising siblings in different environments will not provide you genetic diversity. Outbreeding the siblings dilutes the related line by 50% and those broods should be able to be bred back to the original broods or parents, then outbred to another line, again. I don't think we have enough lines in captivity to outbreed as often as would be ideal. There's also the taxonomical hurtles of having proper IDs, such as with some of the Tityus and Centruroides bicolor. Keeping species rare and expensive benifits the breeders/sellers, but hurts the captive gene pool. Of course, we can't expect a breeder to give away broods that they may have invested several hundred dollars in, either. I think breeding loans and trading, and tracking the original sources of the rare species is going to become more and more crucial, as regulations tighten, species become harder to find, due to habitat distribution, and lines become increasingly inbred.
     
  16. Johnny Spadix

    Johnny Spadix Arachnoknight Active Member

    Yes its Centruroides hoffmanni. This little one died after 1 week :-(..
     
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  17. Scorpionluva

    Scorpionluva Arachnobaron Arachnosupporter

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    I made the effort once i got back into keeping and breeding scorpions a few years ago that i would get specimens from as many different sources so my bloodlines wouldnt "run out " for example i got my rhopalurus junceus from 4 different sources and over 3 years later - im still producing 40+ ever brood and theyre always healthy. Im on my 4th or 5th generation and it seems they keep getting better. Firm believer in not inbreeding. If you wanted a healthy child - you certainly wouldnt want to hop on your sister to make that happen ... would you ? LOL i wouldnt !
     
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  18. spotropaicsav

    spotropaicsav Arachnoknight Active Member

    sorry for your loss, though given the two metasoma I can see why it did not survive