Megaphobema Mesomelas Theories

[SonsofArachne]

Isn’t the thread about whether high temperatures will kill the mesomelas? No one here is forcing anyone to keep their mesomelas at high temperatures. The point is to prove whether high temperatures is a factor right? If you wish to keep yours at a cooler temperature that’s your right doesn’t mean I or others need to follow my example. What has always worked for me or others may not be suitable for you. Heck I use vermiculite as substrate for my tarantulas, practically a good 97% of hobbyists don’t like to use vermiculite for their tarantulas. That doesn’t stop me for using vermiculite.

Haplocosmia himalayana I’ve also kept at 80 degrees lol....

As I said, I've never heard Haplocosmia himalayana being harmed by higher temps, but then they certainly aren't harmed by 70 deg either. To each his own, I guess.

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

As I said, I've never heard Haplocosmia himalayana being harmed by higher temps, but then they certainly aren't harmed by 70 deg either. To each his own, I guess.

Exactly!

 

[Liquifin]

As I said, I've never heard Haplocosmia himalayana being harmed by higher temps, but then they certainly aren't harmed by 70 deg either. To each his own, I guess.

Wait H. himalayana likes cooler temps?? Well then i'm keeping mines wrong, as in the summer the area I keep them is around the 80-87 degrees since I live in the south. But it does quite well and is quite the tolerant one on temps.

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

Wait H. himalayana likes cooler temps?? Well then i'm keeping mines wrong, as in the summer the area I keep them is around the 80-87 degrees since I live in the south. But it does quite well and is quite the tolerant one on temps.

No need to change if it’s doing well right?

 

[Derivative]

I never expected this much attention on my thread. I basically just shot a nerf gun at a wasps nest metaphorically although I do admit these debates are interesting...

 

[SonsofArachne]

Holy sh#t I never expected this much attention on my thread. I basically just shot a nerf gun at a wasps nest metaphorically although I do admit these debates are interesting...

Bring up the best way of keeping any T species. Go on, I dare ya, see what happens.

 

[Predacons5]

Ok so I have a theory on why Megaphobema Mesomelas die randomly and seem to be so fragile. I am by no means an expert on anything concerning tarantulas and I am looking for feedback on my theory. If anyone has theories of there own feel free to post them.
My theory is that they are overfed and they're organs cant keep up so they end up dying. This may sound ridiculous but here me out. Megaphobema Mesomelas are notorious for requiring lower temperatures and this might mean that when they are kept at the correct temperatures (60-67) their metabolism works much slower than the average tarantula. So often times the normal 3-4 crickets per week for a sling should realy be 1 cricket every 2 weeks for Megaphobema Mesomelas. Or for an adult the normal 2 dubia roaches per 2 weeks should be 1 dubia roach a month for Megaphobema Mesomelas. One reason I speculate overfeeding may be the cause of many Megaphobema Mesomelas's deaths is that when they die they tend to look overweight and almost bloated in a way.At least in the small sample size I have seen which is 2. I would speculate that their metabolism isn't fast enough when they are kept at correct temperatures to keep up with the average tarantula's food intake which may cause their organs to go into overdrive and eventually shutdown.
This at best pseudoscientific speculation because I have only seen 2 pictures of dead M. Mesomelas and they all looked bloated. It is important to note that this is an extremely small sample size and that my theory is very flawed in many ways. I am self admittedly a begginer in the tarantula hobby but I love doing research and speculating. Any feedback is much appreciated.

I have just recently gotten into keeping tarantulas. Take what I say with a grain of salt regarding the keeping of this species.

However...

I have been growing orchids for 25 years or so, I think I know what I'm talking about when I contribute indirectly to this subject in this way.

Growing orchids from Peru and Ecuador, (where Ecuador sits on the equator and Peru is within the Tropic of Capricorn), I have a decent idea of how cold or warm these areas are at 1,200 m to 1,500 m above sea level based off of the research I've done for my orchids. In the countries of Ecuador and Peru, the ambient air temperatures at 1,200 m to 1,500 m are pretty mild. It is not blistering hot, but at the same time it is not as cold as 65 F - 67 F during the day. 65 F - 67 F might be reasonable ambient air temperatures at night, but the reality of it is the ambient day temperatures are significantly higher than what you guys are stating it is. The ambient air temperatures during the day at this elevation for Ecuador and Peru are between 70 F - 85 F. This is pretty much room temperature for most of you guys.

Now, if you take into consideration where Costa Rica, (the country where Megaphobema mesomelas is found), is in relation to the equator - it is within the Tropic of Cancer. That means I can pretty much expect very similar ambient air temperatures there at the same elevation.

Guys, I grow orchids that are much higher in elevation than 1,200 m - 1,500 m above sea level, and I have been successfully growing them for at least 1 year. I grow orchids that can come from 2,000 m - 2,500 m in my room. During the summer I may have to cool the room down to 75 F so that I can be comfortable in my room, but 75 F is the same high end ambient air temperature that the orchids that come from 2,200 m likes and grows comfortably in. If my ambient air temperatures shoot up to 80 F for short periods of time, it is no problem for the orchids that come from 2,200 m, but if it stays at 80 F for long periods of time or if it shoots up to 85 F or 90 F, then those orchids start showing signs of heat stress.

Now think about what I just said about orchids and translate that to Mesophobema mesomelas which come from Costa Rica at an elevation of 1,200 m to 1,500 m above sea level. That means this tarantula regularly experiences an ambient air temperature range of 55 F - 80 F on a regular basis. These temperatures are not anything new to this tarantula. Of course it is best to avoid extreme temperatures, but room temperature is between 65 F - 77 F anyways. And if it shoots up during the summer, with an air conditioner, the room can be kept at 75 F without a problem. You may have to pay a big electricity bill at the end of each summer month, but at least you and your tarantula would be comfortable.

Also, take into consideration that the temperature inside the tarantula's tunnels are more important than the ambient air temperatures. The tarantula spends the majority of its time in its burrow. The tarantula's burrow is probably anywhere around 5 F - 10 F lower than the ambient air temperature.

What I'm saying is that I don't think this tarantula is dying from temperature mismanagement. What I do notice is that the habitat that this species comes from is very rainy and it also is very windy.

I've also noticed a number of people are able to keep this species.

I think it is the air circulation that's the biggest problem.

The other one is that you guys may be keeping the animal too wet. From what I'm seeing of this tarantula's habitat, only the top layer of the soil it comes from is wet. The deeper part of the substrate that it digs into is actually pretty dry. It also likes to dig holes along the side of embankments, (sloped areas). That means the water doesn't really collect there. The only thing that should be "wet" is the air. When it rains frequently, the relative humidity can get up to 90% or more.

Like I said, this is my two cents. Take it for what it is worth.

I kept seeing a lot of back-and-forth regarding what the animal's requirements were and couldn't help but put the question of temperature to rest. Guys, it's not the temperature, it's something else.

I like this video about this species, so here it is:

 

[birdspidersCH]

another one, maybe good input to this discussion?

 

[Vanessa]

Part of the problem of keeping a collection is that you can't cater to specific climates if you have more than one species. Unless you have a large enough home, or one that can provide a cooler/warmer area, then it is smart to stick to species who have a larger window of error for temperature.
It's easy for someone to say that you should just keep your home at 75° if you want to ensure that this particular species thrives, but that only works if the species that you're keeping ALL thrive at those temperatures.
Most people keep their collection at room temperature, unless they're fortunate enough to have a cellar or pantry where some can be kept who thrive at lower temperatures. And, while some people have had no problems keeping this species at the same temperature as the rest of their collection, it seems that some people have definitely had issues. It boils down to whether you think it is fair to take the risk and kill them, or maybe decide to stick to species whose conditions have a greater range of error or ones who have an established history of doing better at room temperature.

 

[Predacons5]

I wasn't telling anyone they should definitively keep the room(s) they keep all their tarantulas at 75 F when that isn't appropriate just for the sake of one species being an outlier amongst the group. I merely answered the question as to what the actual appropriate average high end daytime ambient air temperature really was for the species Megaphobema mesomelas when you check the temperatures for the Monteverde Cloud Forest. When I stated the high end daytime ambient air temperature of 75 F I was taking into consideration that this would be a rough average of the daytime high end ambient air temperature at an elevation of 1,200 m - 1,800 m, (I just didn't think to mention that 75 F was a rough average of all the high end temperatures that occur in the natural habitat the tarantula comes from). 75 F would be within the range of what the high end temperatures could be at any given day and at any given point of the day at the Monteverde Cloud Forest Reserve at about 1,200 m - 1,800 m. Knowing this, it totally falls in line with Urthstrype's experiences as a keeper of Megaphobema mesomelas. In reality, several individuals of Megaphobema mesomelas could most likely handle an ambient air temperature of 80 F just fine as was stated by Exoskeleton Invertebrates because throughout the year, there will be times when the ambient air temperature will hover around 80 F - 85 F. Like I stated before, the ambient air temperatures at 1,200 m - 1,800 m in the tropics are mild, they are not extreme, and they are definitely not as extreme as 65 F - 67 F during the day (as was stated prior, 65 F - 67 F are totally acceptable night time ambient air temperatures). When reading the yearly average temperatures for Monteverde Cloud Forest Reserve, you have to consider range, mean, median, and mode of the temperatures. Whether the keeper has other tarantulas that can do well at 75 F or not is up to the keeper to determine, not me, I really don't know what you guys have anyways.

The bigger take away is that the "random" death experienced by keepers of this species could be due to other factors like air circulation being too low, keeping the tarantula too wet, or relative humidity is too low. Overfeeding could also be a big possibility that shouldn't be overlooked as well, especially when it was mentioned that fecal impaction is a particularly common problem that leads to death. I basically answered all of the OP's questions and I am siding with Urthstrype and Exoskeleton Invertebrates on their decision to keep their Megaphobema mesomelas at 75 F - 80 F based on evidence that is readily available on the internet and based on my personal experiences growing orchids, (because I honestly think that 80 F is still within reasonable high end limits for this species based on my experiences with the flora that come from the same elevation in tropical countries in the southern hemisphere). My point is not to get too caught up in what the high end temperature tolerance of the species is when there is a mountain of evidence that points against needing to keep this tarantula at pretty much what would otherwise be considered average night time ambient air temperatures when there are clearly other factors involved based on the 2 videos that birdspidersCH posted of his travels to Monteverde Cloud Forest in Costa Rica where he goes in search of Megaphobema mesomelas in the wild.

There really is no need for conjecture, all the hard evidence is easily obtainable now.

another one, maybe good input to this discussion?

Out of curiosity Martin, when was this video filmed? What is the time of year that this was done? I am curious if you went there during the wet season or the dry season. I wanted to know if there was a difference in the amount of rainfall at different parts of the year in that area.

 

[birdspidersCH]

Out of curiosity Martin, when was this video filmed? What is the time of year that this was done? I am curious if you went there during the wet season or the dry season. I wanted to know if there was a difference in the amount of rainfall at different parts of the year in that area.

sure thing - this was filmed in the beginning of March '19. The locals said it was quite dry and the rain just started a little. Very harsh rain was not present, just the slight one you see during the videos and then some serious rainfalls for a few minutes. It will certainly be more rainy in a few months, but nevertheless the climate up there is pretty stable all year around other than in other regions I assume. We have found this species in several different locations and were very lucky that we found extremely healthy populations with >30 adult females to be found within an hour or so. Keep in mind this is a "forest species" which lives in deep burrows were the humidity is constantly high and the air quality is just not the same as in enclosures back home.
What we also tend to forget is that the soil also needs to breathe... even more important when there is high humidity and moisture involved. It's almost impossible to reconstruct the same wet claylike soil they live in without damping the whole enclosure.

 

[lazarus]

Really awesome seeing these beauties in their natural habitat, great work Martin, your channel deserves to grow much bigger.

Not sure if I agree that M. mesomelas shouldn't be kept as a pet. None of our captive tarantulas are being kept in identical conditions with the ones they have in the wild. If our aim is to reproduce their natural habitat why should we try to have only the temperature and humidity the same? In my opinion the most important aspect should be their diet is the same. What do M. mesomelas prey on in the wild? I doubt it's crikets, cockroaches and "superworms". But is it really necessary? for most tarantula species, it doesn't seem to be.

I've raised a M. mesomelas from sling to MM and did not have any issue, after it matured I've sold him to someone who was able to successfully breed him. I kept him with moist substrate all the time and during the summer when the temperature in my T room would rise to ~26-27 C, I'd move him to another room with AC where temperature stays below 22C. That's all.
Now I have another specimen (it's also a male unfortunately), I've received him with a missing front leg but he has since molted and regenerated the leg, he's eating well, he's active and overall seems healthy.

 

[StampFan]

Costa Rica Max temps is 75

The normal high for *today* at the Monte Verde Cloud Forest Reserve in Costa Rica is 29C, or 84F. Granted that's not burrow temperature, but it certainly gets warmer than 74F in Costa Rica.

sure thing - this was filmed in the beginning of March '19. The locals said it was quite dry and the rain just started a little. Very harsh rain was not present, just the slight one you see during the videos and then some serious rainfalls for a few minutes. It will certainly be more rainy in a few months, but nevertheless the climate up there is pretty stable all year around other than in other regions I assume. We have found this species in several different locations and were very lucky that we found extremely healthy populations with >30 adult females to be found within an hour or so. Keep in mind this is a "forest species" which lives in deep burrows were the humidity is constantly high and the air quality is just not the same as in enclosures back home.
What we also tend to forget is that the soil also needs to breathe... even more important when there is high humidity and moisture involved. It's almost impossible to reconstruct the same wet claylike soil they live in without damping the whole enclosure.

I seem to remember that on some of the burrow holes when it was raining furiously that you mentioned the mouth of the burrow was dry, and the ambient air around you was 100% humidity. Is there any chance they burrow deep until they hit a more dry area, away from that constant moisture?

As always, keep up the good work, I can't believe these vids aren't getting 1 million plus views, they are easily some of the best vids in this genre on YouTube....

 

[xenesthis]

Having the experience of importing over two decades of at least 100+ M. mesomales spiderlings and raising many of them up to sub-adults and adults, and I also visited their habitat back in 1997 as a tourist, it's very hard to simulate their environmental conditions in captivity. They like it cool (55F-70F) with humidity 80-90%, but well-ventilated and "windy". I did my best with them in large tanks with a automatic fogger and waterfall with a ceiling fan on and air conditioning keeping them around 65F. They are just a very difficult species to raise up and maintain successfully. In their "cloud forest" it rains frequently so the 84F degrees listed for a daily temperature is not the true temp. of their burrows and habitat. With the rain coming down and wind, I experienced real temps of 45F-65F in the upper elevations of the "cloud forest" fairly frequently.

"Coolest temperatures have been recorded as low as 40 degrees F."
Reference: https://www.govisitcostarica.com/travelInfo/general/micro-climates.asp

 

[Predacons5]

sure thing - this was filmed in the beginning of March '19. The locals said it was quite dry and the rain just started a little. Very harsh rain was not present, just the slight one you see during the videos and then some serious rainfalls for a few minutes. It will certainly be more rainy in a few months, but nevertheless the climate up there is pretty stable all year around other than in other regions I assume.

Wow...that's a lot of rain.

We have found this species in several different locations and were very lucky that we found extremely healthy populations with >30 adult females to be found within an hour or so.

That's cool they're still plentiful at the reserve. Those are pretty cool tarantulas.

Keep in mind this is a "forest species" which lives in deep burrows were the humidity is constantly high and the air quality is just not the same as in enclosures back home.

Humidity is definitely pretty consistently high in an area where it rains constantly.

I definitely think the air circulation part of things will be difficult to reproduce, but then it brings up the point of whether it is necessary to reproduce gusts of wind or will creating far more holes in the enclosure be sufficient. It'd be interesting to note...

What we also tend to forget is that the soil also needs to breathe...

It's funny you say this. This is what I kept in mind with my Pseudhapalopus sp. Blue and Pseudhapalopus trinitatis. Guess habits carried over from growing plants really helps out in other hobbies after all. Haha. Good to know I'm on the right track when I punched holes on the portion of the plastic enclosures where the soil level is.

even more important when there is high humidity and moisture involved. It's almost impossible to reconstruct the same wet claylike soil they live in without damping the whole enclosure.

High relative humidity can be achieved without producing condensation within the enclosure, it's just not the easiest thing to do while also providing heavy air circulation.

The clay-like soil can be reconstructed with some effort. If you are a plant nerd like me, you'll go through extraordinary lengths to find an affordable bag of clay loam. Clay loam retains a lot of moisture, but it can also dry out fairly quickly. I'm using a mixture of top soil with clay loam and some finely chopped Sphagnum moss as substrate for my Phormictopus cancerides and Phormictopus sp. "Dominican Purple" slings. This mixture retains moisture without making the substrate soggy if one is careful to not put in a ton of water to make the substrate muddy, and it started drying up in about 2 - 3 days. I plan to test out the same mixture with different ratios of the same ingredients on some other tarantulas and see what kinds of properties the substrate has.

 

[xenesthis]

"It's raining and it's cold".
Reference:

 

[Predacons5]

I seem to remember that on some of the burrow holes when it was raining furiously that you mentioned the mouth of the burrow was dry, and the ambient air around you was 100% humidity. Is there any chance they burrow deep until they hit a more dry area, away from that constant moisture?

As always, keep up the good work, I can't believe these vids aren't getting 1 million plus views, they are easily some of the best vids in this genre on YouTube....

I know right!

These are awesome videos!

I honestly like these videos more than the stuff on Animal Planet or the multiple kinds of Discovery Channels out there nowadays. There aren't any animal documentaries on there any more.

I also like Coyote Peterson's Brave Wilderness too.

Having the experience of importing over two decades of at least 100+ M. mesomales spiderlings and raising many of them up to sub-adults and adults, and I also visited their habitat back in 1997 as a tourist, it's very hard to simulate their environmental conditions in captivity. They like it cool (55F-70F) with humidity 80-90%, but well-ventilated and "windy". I did my best with them in large tanks with a automatic fogger and waterfall with a ceiling fan on and air conditioning keeping them around 65F. They are just a very difficult species to raise up and maintain successfully. In their "cloud forest" it rains frequently so the 84F degrees listed for a daily temperature is not the true temp. of their burrows and habitat. With the rain coming down and wind, I experienced real temps of 45F-65F in the upper elevations of the "cloud forest" fairly frequently.

"Coolest temperatures have been recorded as low as 40 degrees F."
Reference: https://www.govisitcostarica.com/travelInfo/general/micro-climates.asp

From my experience growing orchids from tropical cloud forests I can tell you it is not necessary to reproduce the clouds - especially at 1,200 m - 1,800 m. If you keep the relative humidity high, it is sufficient. I honestly don't think the tarantula would know the difference if the clouds were not simulated. In Martin's video, the clouds did not obscure anything. If they were in the clouds, you can totally tell. If you've read what I posted earlier, you'll know I currently grow several species of orchids that come from 1,000 m - 2,500 m from places like Colombia, Ecuador, Costa Rica, or Peru. It wasn't necessary to reproduce the clouds with any of these orchids at all. Even the Telipogon spp. orchids that are known to come from cloud forests at elevations of 2,200 m - 2,500 m do not need cloud simulation to thrive.

If you tried to simulate the clouds, I'm willing to bet that it got too wet for the tarantulas. How do I come to this hypothesis? Because I tried simulating the clouds with my Telipogon spp. orchids and rotted them all out. When I just kept the relative humidity around the plant high without keeping them waterlogged, they thrived - especially when I kept them at 75 F during the day. Even a few days where the daytime ambient air temperature was 80 F, it didn't produce any visually apparent stressful effects on these cloud forest orchids.

As a side note: Telipogon spp. orchids are notorious in the orchid growing hobby for being very challenging to grow. More people end up killing these than growing these. These are definitely not beginners orchids. (Incidentally, I draw a lot of parallels between growing Telipogon spp. orchids and keeping Megaphobema mesomelas, they seem to have similar needs.)

I'd also like to point out that the cooler the temperature the less likely you'll need to add more moisture to the enclosure.

The ambient daytime air temperature at 2,300 m in the tropics is where it hovers around 65 F to 70 F. Unless your tarantula is from this high up, there is no need to keep the ambient daytime air temperature at 70 F.

The burrow is the one that should be cooler. This should be anywhere around 5 F to 10 F cooler than the ambient air temperature.

I also know that air circulation is important. With these cloud forest orchids, it is not necessary to produce strong winds, but the air circulation better be on point. There is no room for growing these orchids in a stuffy room. That room better have air that feels somewhat refreshing to breathe in. I don't know if this will be the case with Megaphobema mesomelas as well. It might not need to have strong winds be reproduced in the home setting. Maybe all it really needs is to breathe in air that just feels refreshing to breathe in and that's it.

Regarding everything else, I don't know the answer to yet.

 

[ChaosSphere]

I'm kind of stumped at the sheer amount of quality information in this thread.
But I'm also finding my self wondering where to go from here?
My mesomelas had been kept far too wet for a long time (I got it before I had the experience) but it is as happy as can be.
Currently my T room reaches Up to 30c when the sun shines through and it has responded by burrowing like mad.
Its alive, happy and fat - I think @Predacons5 is absolutely right pointing to the factor of airflow as an important aspect.

Remember back when Avics where considered frail? Just saying.

Extremely interesting thread!

 

[Garetyl]

Interesting read. I've never kept this species, but I'm curious: everyone mentions it needing good airflow. Wouldn't adding pebbles, live plants and invertebrates that burrow (ie: harmless species of worms) help aerate the soil? The roots, tunnels, ect, would theoretically help keep the lower layers moist while also allowing the soil to breathe.

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

M. mesomelas are not hard to raise. Good luck for those who are having trouble raising them and continuing to try to find the answers of how to raise them lol.

99% of my tarantulas I’ve raised without any proper knowledge about their habitat. M. mesomelas I’ve never bothered asking anyone of how to take care of them. Very rarely I’ll ask someone about a certain species of how to take care of them, that’s a very slim chance that I ask. For the most part is common sense of how one should take care of a tarantula.

I use vermiculite for substrate for my mesomelas if that helps any of you guys.