Mass sling death

[vessz]

It started with my two poecilotheria juveniles dying about a week ago. Since they are my first poecilotherias I just assumed I sucked at keeping them and then did some heavy research. Couldn't find what I did wrong. I only had them for a month or so, so I wasn't very attached to them. Sad nonetheless. I eventually shrugged it off. Yesterday I found my very small Acanthoscurria geniculata in death curl. Didn't think much of it. Today I found my precious Psalmopoeus slings dead. Checked them both for mites, checked the enclosure for mold... nothing. They were acting just fine the night before. Humidity was right, temperature was right, none of them were dehydrated. Checked the other enclosures, and surprise surprise ALL OF THEM WERE DEAD! Except for the bigger t's and two slings. No warning signs or anything.
The victims were all eating from the same shitty fruitfly culture. I got it online since none of my local pet stores sell fruitflies. It only lasted a couple of days before it was riddled with grain mites. Could that be the reason or is it something else?
I'm incredibly devastated.
Any answer is appreciated.

 

[boina]

Yes, it could be the fruit flies. Fruit flies are bad feeders to start with - they are nutritionally incomplete and if you have been feeding fruit flies excusively that is a very likely reason for your slings deaths. If those fruit flies have been raised on some bad food it may have hastened the death of the slings. Never, ever feed slings exclusively on fruit flies! They won't survive.

Another possiblity is poisoning. Has anyone been spraying pesticides in the area (unlikely in Sweden, I know), but maybe your neighbors have been using some stuff and the windows have been open? Any other poison you could think of?

Mites can be excluded. There is a completely irrational mite phobia in the hobby but mites are completely harmless and cannot kill any spider. same goes for fungus. No healthy spider has ever died from any fungus.

 

[arachnidgill]

It started with my two poecilotheria juveniles dying about a week ago. Since they are my first poecilotherias I just assumed I sucked at keeping them and then did some heavy research. Couldn't find what I did wrong. I only had them for a month or so, so I wasn't very attached to them. Sad nonetheless. I eventually shrugged it off. Yesterday I found my very small Acanthoscurria geniculata in death curl. Didn't think much of it. Today I found my precious Psalmopoeus slings dead. Checked them both for mites, checked the enclosure for mold... nothing. They were acting just fine the night before. Humidity was right, temperature was right, none of them were dehydrated. Checked the other enclosures, and surprise surprise ALL OF THEM WERE DEAD! Except for the bigger t's and two slings. No warning signs or anything.
The victims were all eating from the same shitty fruitfly culture. I got it online since none of my local pet stores sell fruitflies. It only lasted a couple of days before it was riddled with grain mites. Could that be the reason or is it something else?
I'm incredibly devastated.
Any answer is appreciated.

I heard fruit flys aren't any good for slings. No clue whether that was your problem though. In the future just use small crickets, if they are too big for the spider then crush the crickets head before tossing it in.

 

[vessz]

I know fruit flies aren’t good longterm. It was only temporary until I was able to get more pinhead crickets.
Maybe it was the cause anyway?

 

[Mirandarachnid]

Were you also feeding the fruit flies to the slings that are still alive?

 

[boina]

I know fruit flies aren’t good longterm. It was only temporary until I was able to get more pinhead crickets.
Maybe it was the cause anyway?

How long have you been feeding fruit flies? It's unlikely they've been the cause if you have fed them for less than, let's say, a couple of months. But of course, if your fruit fly colony had a problem with toxins in the substrate than the fruit flies would still have lived - they are pretty resistant - but the spiders would have died from eating poisoned fruit flies.

 

[vessz]

Were you also feeding the fruit flies to the slings that are still alive?

Yes

How long have you been feeding fruit flies? It's unlikely they've been the cause if you haven't fed them for less than, let's say, a couple of months. But of course, if your fruit fly colony had a problem with toxins in the substrate than the fruit flies would still have lived - they are pretty resistant - but the spiders would have died from eating poisoned fruit flies.

No more than 2 months. Probably around 1 or 1 1/2

 

[boina]

No more than 2 months. Probably around 1 or 1 1/2

It could have been several reasons together. The spiders were weakened by malnutrition and then something else happened that killed them all off, i.e. a 'bad' colony of fruit flies or poisoning.

 

[NukaMedia Exotics]

I'm guessing it must've been a problem with the feeders being poisoned in some way.

 

[korg]

Fruit flies are bad feeders to start with - they are nutritionally incomplete and if you have been feeding fruit flies excusively that is a very likely reason for your slings deaths

The spiders were weakened by malnutrition and then something else happened that killed them all off

All respect boina, as I know you are an experienced keeper, but what exactly are you basing this on? Different feeders have different compositions in terms of moisture, protein, fat, etc (what I can find on fruit flies doesn't seem to indicate they are radically different from crickets, mealworms, and whatnot but maybe I'm looking in the wrong place), but unfortunately nobody really knows anything about the dietary needs of tarantulas (i.e. there has been basically no scientific work on that subject), so its hard to say whether those differences are necessarily relevant to their health/growth, right? If we're talking about slings consuming smaller quantities of food due to the tiny size, etc of fruit flies that's a different question, but I think in general it's best to frame these sorts of claims as personal opinions or rumors rather than facts that others might try to pass on. As far as the contamination of the fruit fly colony, perhaps you're on to something there. I've never used flies as feeders so not sure how common that type of issue may be.

 

[boina]

All respect boina, as I know you are an experienced keeper, but what exactly are you basing this on? Different feeders have different compositions in terms of moisture, protein, fat, etc (what I can find on fruit flies doesn't seem to indicate they are radically different from crickets, mealworms, and whatnot but maybe I'm looking in the wrong place), but unfortunately nobody really knows anything about the dietary needs of tarantulas (i.e. there has been basically no scientific work on that subject), so its hard to say whether those differences are necessarily relevant to their health/growth, right? If we're talking about slings consuming smaller quantities of food due to the tiny size, etc of fruit flies that's a different question, but I think in general it's best to frame these sorts of claims as personal opinions or rumors rather than facts that others might try to pass on. As far as the contamination of the fruit fly colony, perhaps you're on to something there. I've never used flies as feeders so not sure how common that type of issue may be.

First and foremost I'm a scientist. I don't do rumors. Actually there's plenty of scientific studies about the nutritional needs of spiders and that's what I based this on. It's not an opinion it's a documented fact. There are actually quite a few more scientific papers about fruit flies not being a very good choice as feeders for spiders, but I do admit most of them deal with true spiders. I kind of inferred that a tarantula's needs are not all that different but you are right, I might have mentioned that most studies have not been done on tarantulas. It all depends on what you feed your fruit flies actually. If you raise them on dog food they become much better feeders for spiders (if you want I can find that specific paper later, but I'm kind of in hurry right now). Unfortunatly that's not the usual way to raise those flies.

 

[Toddydog]

Suggestion, I feed slings prekilled. I find some slings get intimidated by live prey. I like supers and mealworms best, they are easy to keep and easy to cut up and serve to slings. Plus they are available at almost all pet stores.

 

[korg]

First and foremost I'm a scientist. I don't do rumors. Actually there's plenty of scientific studies about the nutritional needs of spiders and that's what I based this on. It's not an opinion it's a documented fact. There are actually quite a few more scientific papers about fruit flies not being a very good choice as feeders for spiders, but I do admit most of them deal with true spiders. I kind of inferred that a tarantula's needs are not all that different but you are right, I might have mentioned that most studies have not been done on tarantulas. It all depends on what you feed your fruit flies actually. If you raise them on dog food they become much better feeders for spiders (if you want I can find that specific paper later, but I'm kind of in hurry right now). Unfortunatly that's not the usual way to raise those flies.

Haha, didn’t mean to impugn your scientific credibility, alter. Appreciate your response! Not trying to be overly argumentative about it, just seems to me like some very specific claims about tarantula nutritional needs were being made with unclear backup. Sounds like you yourself are saying that the value of fruit flies as a feeder can vary widely, so again, I feel like that supports my point that the language should be couched differently. The study you cited above also looks like it’s focused on foraging behavior and “nutritional needs” in a very broadly defined sense (total energy vs diversity), right? Can’t see the whole thing as I don’t have JSTOR access, but what I’m talking about is actual research that shows tarantulas specifically need X level of moisture, fat, etc in their diets or that certain levels of those nutritional components are tied to certain specific physiological effects. That’s really specific research and doesn’t exist to my knowledge, but if there is something like that out there, even just for true spiders, I would very much appreciate you pointing me that direction!

 

[boina]

Haha, didn’t mean to impugn your scientific credibility, alter. Appreciate your response! Not trying to be overly argumentative about it, just seems to me like some very specific claims about tarantula nutritional needs were being made with unclear backup. Sounds like you yourself are saying that the value of fruit flies as a feeder can vary widely, so again, I feel like that supports my point that the language should be couched differently. The study you cited above also looks like it’s focused on foraging behavior and “nutritional needs” in a very broadly defined sense (total energy vs diversity), right? Can’t see the whole thing as I don’t have JSTOR access, but what I’m talking about is actual research that shows tarantulas specifically need X level of moisture, fat, etc in their diets or that certain levels of those nutritional components are tied to certain specific physiological effects. That’s really specific research and doesn’t exist to my knowledge, but if there is something like that out there, even just for true spiders, I would very much appreciate you pointing me that direction!

Sorry, wrong link. Try this, the article is available in full. What it states is:

. Based on laboratory experiments with the wolf spider Schizocosa sp., the latter authors establish five quality categories: 1) high-quality prey (e.g., the collembolan Tomocerus bidentatus) are nutritionally complete; single-species diets allow complete development (possibly full life cycle); 2) intermediate-quality prey (e.g., laboratory fruit flies Drosophila melanogaster) give initially high growth rates, but are insufficient for full development and the spiders die before maturity; 3) low-quality prey (e.g., sciarid midges and conspecifics) allow very little growth and development and spiders die in an early instar; 4) poor-quality prey (e.g., several aphid species) allow neither growth nor development

Yes, the quality of every feeder is strongly dependent on what you feed them and Drosophilas can be fed to be nutritionally complete. Unfortunately the Drosophila colonies you can buy are usually raised on a yeast based medium that allows the fruit flies to grow just fine but is lacking in proteins the spiders need. Fruit flies get these best from animal proteins, therefore the recommendation to feed them dog food. But, as I said, that's not done for the colonies you can buy online, because dog food rots and stinks and is a mess.

Here's the dog food citation:

Drosophila melanogaster of low quality (LQ) were reared on Carolina Drosophila medium formula 4-24 (Carolina Biological Supply, USA); high quality (HQ) prey were produced on a mixture of Carolina medium and dog food (Techni-Cal, Canada) containing 26 per cent protein, 16 per cent fat, and a variety of vitamins and minerals. Addition of dog food to the fruitfly medium enhances the performance of the spider (Mayntz et al. 2003)

Another citation from Soren Toft, arachnologist (not available for free, unfortunately):

If only nutrient-deficient prey is available, all aspects of spider performance like prey capture (including cannibalism), growth, development, reproductive success and survival are reduced. The nutrient composition of prey influences spiders’ role as biocontrol agents, because predation efficiency is reduced for prey with a nutrient composition that differs from their demand. As a stress factor, nutrient imbalance differs from hunger in several aspects. Hunger increases individual activity and aggression against prey and thus enhances the possibilities for recovery, whereas nutrient imbalances weaken the animal and reduce its possibilities for relief.

Most articles on spider nutrition are actually behind a pay wall, so there's limited stuff that I can link, but here are a few:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0099165
http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/7/4/517
http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/5/6/735.long

 

[viper69]

All respect boina, as I know you are an experienced keeper, but what exactly are you basing this on? Different feeders have different compositions in terms of moisture, protein, fat, etc (what I can find on fruit flies doesn't seem to indicate they are radically different from crickets, mealworms, and whatnot but maybe I'm looking in the wrong place), but unfortunately nobody really knows anything about the dietary needs of tarantulas (i.e. there has been basically no scientific work on that subject), so its hard to say whether those differences are necessarily relevant to their health/growth, right? If we're talking about slings consuming smaller quantities of food due to the tiny size, etc of fruit flies that's a different question, but I think in general it's best to frame these sorts of claims as personal opinions or rumors rather than facts that others might try to pass on. As far as the contamination of the fruit fly colony, perhaps you're on to something there. I've never used flies as feeders so not sure how common that type of issue may be.

Korg glad you are still around. Actually, there is at least ONE SCIENTIFIC paper on the dietary needs of Ts. Though, the paper did not examine different prey specimens. People in the chameleon hobby, like myself at one point, have done studies on the nutritional value of feeders. Crickets are definitely the bottom of the barrel for chams hah. Fruit flies were not on this list unfortunately.

 

[viper69]

Sorry, wrong link. Try this, the article is available in full. What it states is:



Yes, the quality of every feeder is strongly dependent on what you feed them and Drosophilas can be fed to be nutritionally complete. Unfortunately the Drosophila colonies you can buy are usually raised on a yeast based medium that allows the fruit flies to grow just fine but is lacking in proteins the spiders need. Fruit flies get these best from animal proteins, therefore the recommendation to feed them dog food. But, as I said, that's not done for the colonies you can buy online, because dog food rots and stinks and is a mess.

Here's the dog food citation:



Another citation from Soren Toft, arachnologist (not available for free, unfortunately):



Most articles on spider nutrition are actually behind a pay wall, so there's limited stuff that I can link, but here are a few:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0099165
http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/7/4/517
http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/5/6/735.long

What is all this science mumbo jumbo, who believes in science facts anymore.

Why I heard that rocks falling from cliffs off of California and White Cliffs of Dover are the cause of global sea level rise! You may blame some of my people here and their elected Federal officials for that one.

 

[AngelDeVille]

So.... if there is a doubt as to efficacy of a certain type of feeder, why is there such resistance to changing feeders?

Is the Fruit Fly Illuminatti so powerful?

Personally, I want my pets to have a long happy life.

 

[Venom1080]

Sorry, wrong link. Try this, the article is available in full. What it states is:



Yes, the quality of every feeder is strongly dependent on what you feed them and Drosophilas can be fed to be nutritionally complete. Unfortunately the Drosophila colonies you can buy are usually raised on a yeast based medium that allows the fruit flies to grow just fine but is lacking in proteins the spiders need. Fruit flies get these best from animal proteins, therefore the recommendation to feed them dog food. But, as I said, that's not done for the colonies you can buy online, because dog food rots and stinks and is a mess.

Here's the dog food citation:



Another citation from Soren Toft, arachnologist (not available for free, unfortunately):



Most articles on spider nutrition are actually behind a pay wall, so there's limited stuff that I can link, but here are a few:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0099165
http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/7/4/517
http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/5/6/735.long

So some random deaths can be explained as lack of nutrients from prey? Are there popular feeders that you shouldn't feed as a staple?
I heard once that mealworms and superworms shouldn't be a staple for any collection.

 

[boina]

So some random deaths can be explained as lack of nutrients from prey? Are there popular feeders that you shouldn't feed as a staple?
I heard once that mealworms and superworms shouldn't be a staple for any collection.

I said it's a possibility, not a fact. About meal/superworms: They are high in fat and lower in protein but they still contain a lot of high quality proteins. I read somewhere that breeding female true spiders need really high protein prey to produce the eggs, so I probably wouldn't feed a female I want to breed exclusively on worms but other than that? (Can't find the paper again, I read so much during the last days, so you'll have to take my word for it.)

 

[StampFan]

I said it's a possibility, not a fact. About meal/superworms: They are high in fat and lower in protein but they still contain a lot of high quality proteins. I read somewhere that breeding female true spiders need really high protein prey to produce the eggs, so I probably wouldn't feed a female I want to breed exclusively on worms but other than that? (Can't find the paper again, I read so much during the last days, so you'll have to take my word for it.)

I have a lot of my slings take down mealworm beetles with gusto. The whole "they taste bitter" thing from the reptile world appears to be a bit of bunk when it comes to tarantulas; I haven't had one refuse one yet.

My question:
What I can't find it what the nutritional profile of the *beetles* is. I have to assume it is different than the mealworm.