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Lifetime effects of a T bite?

Discussion in 'Tarantula Questions & Discussions' started by Cheo Samad, Jan 10, 2017.

  1. Cheo Samad

    Cheo Samad Arachnopeon

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    This is going to be a strange, and possibly even stupid question, but a question none the less.

    A lot of people keep Ts, and it seems to be a lifelong type of hobby. If you're keeping Ts (and for the sake of this question lets talk about old world species) you are obviously at a risk of bites for as long as you directly work with these animals.

    I have read bite reports for a lot of species (nasty little buggers) and they of course are all different. Some bites are dry, some are latched on for multiple seconds, slings, adults, male, female, ect ect.

    Now onto my question, and for this lets just choose a random species. Lets go with Heteroscodra maculata. This is a nasty T with highly potent venom. Now, obviously, there has never been a report of a healthy adult ever dying from a bite. A typica bite will cause you several days of vomiting, muscle cramps, blurry vision, soreness, and overall pain. I'm assuming that after a while you would feel like nothing has happened, and be back to your old self.

    What if someone who took a nasty bite (like a mature female giving a full wet bite, a really good sized dose of venom) recovered from the bite, and then was bitten again later in their career of T keeping? Would the bite follow the same course as the previous one? Same symptoms, and severity? (This is of course assuming all other variables like size, sex, and duration are left static). Would a second bite be even more devestating than the first?

    Followup question, what if you were bitten by one species (again lets just go with H maculata) and then shortly after while you were still recovering, and working the venom out of your body, bitten again, maybe this time by a different species, like some type of Poecilotheria? Are you now in more of a medically significant situation, or are you still unlikely to be in mortal danger?

    To dumb down the question, does tarantula venom (or I guess really any venom) have an addative effect when combined with other events? And followup question, is someone who is bitten multiple times in their lifetime, in any more significant medical danger, than someone who is only bitten once. (Please note, this is NOT the same as asking if someone would have an alergic reaction if they were bitten a second time, this is badically asking if T venom has life long lasting effects on your bodies ability to fight off the symptoms)

    I apologize if this is a stupid question, but I was hoping to get some knowledge dropped on me.
     
  2. cold blood

    cold blood ArachnoGod Active Member

    Basically if you are getting bit with any sort of frequency you are probably in the wrong hobby and should think about a change.

    Bites that dont involve handling are quite rare...dont handle and you significantly reduce your chances. Working your way up to ow through time and experience with other species is the other piece of the puzzle.

    Take it slower and dont jump right to ow and dont handle and you shouldnt have any of these issues.

    Ive been keeping 16 years, took it slow and have never been tagged....never a close call that i can think of. Getting bit is definitely NOT "just part of the hobby" as many outsiders would lead you to believe.

    In the same 16 years ive been bitten by several dogs, yet not a single average person bats an eye when i tell them i work with dogs....same people freak when i tell them i have hundreds of ts.
    Its all about famaliarity.
     
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  3. cold blood

    cold blood ArachnoGod Active Member

    Ive never heard of any evidence of t venom having long term or compounding effects over time.
     
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  4. Cheo Samad

    Cheo Samad Arachnopeon

    I'm not saying getting bit is any sort of frequent occurance for any keeper. In fact, I'm willing to bet that anyone who is diligent, and knows what they're doing, will never get bit.

    This is purely a hypothetical question for the sake of science.

    Edit- also asking this in other places actually raised a decent point that I had completey forgotten about. There are a lot of people who keep venomous snakes, who have been bitten so many times that they are now basically immune to the venom. Tim Friede comes to mind. There is actually one man who has been getting bit on purpose for years in hope of a medical application for his research. (And these aren't little joke snakes, this dude is taking black mamba bites REGULARLY). It is to the point that these people don't even need medical treatment for the bites. The only damage they suffer is the mechanical damage of the fangs themselves.

    I'm now wondering if spider bites in general could function with this same property.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2017
  5. cold blood

    cold blood ArachnoGod Active Member

    Theres also a lot of those snake keepers who are missing fingers and have disfigured hands as a result if bites. Probably a ton more of these people than there is Tim Friedes of the world.
     
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  6. Cheo Samad

    Cheo Samad Arachnopeon

    It would also be a pretty safe assumption that the vast majority of those are people who suffered accidental bites do to complacency, and would not be on equal grounds to a controlled dosage of venom being injecting purposefully time and time again to build resistance. It would also lend itself to thought that a lot more people are reporting bites in the venomous snake hobby because A. bites are astronimcally more medically significant, and B. that hobby is pretty safe to assume more common than the Old World T hobby in general.

    Not saying that either is a wonderful idea, and both are definately dangerous (if too much venom got into the bloodstream, obviously life threateningly dangerous) but for the sake of science, worth mentioning.

    All that said, this isn't about the causes of bites, purposeful, complacent, or otherwise. This is strictly about the lifelong side effects, whether that be venom ressistance, venom sensitivity, or neither.
     
  7. Tim Benzedrine

    Tim Benzedrine Prankster Possum Arachnosupporter

    Wouldn't those types of experiments involve milking the snake of venom and injecting oneself in a chosen area? I can't imagine just doing it in the natural way for a number of reasons. For one thing, there would be variables since not all snakebites are equal. There can be dry bites, partial envenomation and full-bore unload it all versions.

    Edit: Beaten to the point.
     
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  8. Cheo Samad

    Cheo Samad Arachnopeon

    For the sake of discussion, that is also entirely true, it would involve extracting the snakes venom purposefully and eliminating a lot of variables. (By the way, if you ever get the chance to go to a venom milking facility, and witness the practice first hand, you should absolutely do it. It's absolutely facinating and takes freakin balls of steel)

    In order to build any sort of resistance, the amount of venom you would need to inject would be a tiny fraction of the bite a full grown adult would likely deliver. I've seen how much venom a few pit viper species are dishing out on an average bite, it's not a drop or two, it looks like a water gun.
     
  9. Chris LXXIX

    Chris LXXIX Arachnoemperor Active Member

    It's not a stupid question at all, man. I can tell you that I've heard (and Storm76 as well, if I'm not wrong, we talked about that months ago) about a man that, after a bite from C.fimbriatus, suffered heart problems after.

    Now... he was somewhat ill before, or something else involving his health? Add third world sanity or maybe lack of that? He was an exception?

    This I don't know, of course, nor as far as I know that's not what happens in general (still, there's very very few bite reports available for that Theraphosidae, especially considered how much is owned).

    I view that venom equal to 'Pokies' ones, however.
     
  10. Chris LXXIX

    Chris LXXIX Arachnoemperor Active Member

    Yes, but still my man I can't forgot the picture of the arm of that Lady - bitten by a 'Pokie' if I'm not wrong - that turned into a creepy white (or was grey?) for a period of time, a pic that you uploaded back then. Indeed a strange and singular side effect.
     
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  11. Cheo Samad

    Cheo Samad Arachnopeon

    I should probably consider that every persons body makeup is as individual as people themselves. I'm sure there are the random outliers who for one reason or another will have strange side effects, even if it is not the status quo.
     
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  12. Chris LXXIX

    Chris LXXIX Arachnoemperor Active Member

    Yes that's what I always supported as well. While no T's are able to kill you (go figure) or to permanently damage someone for life, we need to consider as well that there's people that are "apparently healthy" but maybe suffering of something they don't even know until a certain day. So a bite/s delivered by certain potent venom OW's, like S.calceatum, P.ornata etc can lead chances % to them to have issues that in general do not affect others.
     
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  13. Cheo Samad

    Cheo Samad Arachnopeon

    Moral of the story, take it slow, don't get bit.
     
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  14. Andrea82

    Andrea82 Arachnoprince Active Member

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  15. VanessaS

    VanessaS Arachnobaron Active Member

    It might be worth noting that often people report having a heightened sensitivity to urticating hairs with continued exposure. While they do not contain venom, they are finding that they do contain chemical properties and it isn't just the physical hair itself, or the structure as they do differ between species, but the chemical compound that determines how severe a reaction a person can experience. How does the toxicity of that chemical composition compare to the venom of the same species?
    Also, different species have hairs that are geared towards different types of predators. Some hairs have more of an effect on mammals, while others have more adverse effects on other invertebrates. Those species whose hairs are geared towards non-mammalian predators might also have venom geared towards those same predators? I don't think much is known regarding specifics and some genera, are still unknown as to what organism they are meant to deter.
    Disclaimer: I have not studied this aspect of urticating hairs versus venom toxicity at any length, I have just done some casual reading of it, so I am just throwing this out there as a theory.
     
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  16. viper69

    viper69 ArachnoGod Old Timer

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    It can yes.

    Never say never ;)


    I've read and spoken to people (2nd info now) who have been tagged by a T and had lasting effects for over a year. Now, is this because the person already had an issue before, or is there something about that person's biochemistry that caused such lasting effects, MAYBE. It's certainly not the reported norm.
     
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  17. viper69

    viper69 ArachnoGod Old Timer

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    Different species product different molecules that affect the body, just like with snakes. If you know enough about venomous snakes, and it sounds like you MIGHT, then ask the question but replacing Ts with venomous snakes, and you'll know the answer.
     
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  18. Cheo Samad

    Cheo Samad Arachnopeon

    I'm seeing a lot of similarities with the way venom effects the body in both Ts and in snakes. That being said, it's sort of a hard question to ask myself in either situation, mainly because it's very outlandish to imagine a scenario where someone would be bitten back to back by multiple different species. Maybe if someone fell onto a T shelf/snake rack?

    Honestly at the end of the day these are all hypotheticals. Maybe I'll be the oddball to man up and start envenomating myself in the name of science. (NOT!)
     
  19. Ungoliant

    Ungoliant Arachnoprince Active Member

    Never underestimate the power of stupidity.
     
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  20. Ghost56

    Ghost56 Arachnobaron Active Member

    ^^^If somethings a possibility, someone's done it. Now we just have to wait for the extra stupid person to write up a bite report lol.