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Kid Dies From Recluse Bite

Discussion in 'True Spiders & Other Arachnids' started by shawno821, Nov 27, 2014.

  1. shawno821

    shawno821 Arachno Pimp Arachnosupporter

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  2. Ashton

    Ashton Arachnoknight

    Is it just me or was that writing a little lacking for a journalist?

    Also that's too bad and now there's going to be more panic about them and they will be seen as slightly more evil.
     
  3. ratluvr76

    ratluvr76 Arachnodemon

    Am I right in thinking that recluse bite deaths are more from secondary infection than the envenomation itself?
     
  4. pitbulllady

    pitbulllady Arachnoking Old Timer

    Reading the entire article, I gathered that this is one of those EXTREMELY rare cases in which the spider was actually seen in the act of biting and captured immediately afterward, and death was due to systemic reactions to the venom. The child died within hours of being bitten, too short an interval for death to have been from a secondary infection unless he was already extremely ill at the time he was bitten. There is a lot that doesn't make sense in the article, though, which jumps around between information about the child's unfortunate death and other sensationalistic stories of Brown Recluse "infestations", and the overall "gist" that I got was still one of which the intent was to provoke fear. The comment about a funeral home worker confirming that the death was from a Brown Recluse bite does raise some suspicions, to say the least.

    pitbulllady
     
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  5. The Snark

    The Snark هرج و مرج مهندس Old Timer

    Last edited: Nov 27, 2014
  6. BigJ999

    BigJ999 Arachnoknight

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    Recluses rarely cause deaths and cause very few bites so it's strange indeed.
     
  7. Phrynus

    Phrynus Arachnosquire

    ""Most patients with CA-MRSA will present with a skin or soft-tissue infection. Clinicians should assume that any spider bite, large pimple, or boil is MRSA until they have evidence to the contrary."

    "CA-MRSA typically causes skin and soft-tissue infections (Figure 1), often in young and otherwise healthy patients. These infections are typically easier to treat than HA-MRSA infections, but some patients with CA-MRSA develop such serious conditions as necrotizing pneumonia, disseminated invasive osteomyelitis, septic arthritis or endocarditis."

    here in florida I have seen 4 MRSA infections, all 4 were blamed on brown recluse spiders, the only problem with that is recluse spiders do not live on peninsular Florida. I don't know if the purpose of these diagnosis is because of legal liabilities of the hospitals, but Everyone I've known that's had the infection, was told that it was a spider bite.

    "necrotizing pneumonia, disseminated invasive osteomyelitis, septic arthritis or endocarditis.",,, any of these reactions in a child, would greatly increase the immortality chances.

    PB

    ---------- Post added 12-17-2014 at 04:35 PM ----------

    "Despite that ominous development, there has recently been encouraging news from the CDC that hospital-acquired MRSA (HA-MRSA) infections are decreasing.2 The number of invasive HA-MRSA infections dropped 28% between 2005 and 2008. Unfortunately, the same is not true of community-acquired MRSA (CA-MRSA) cases, which have risen rapidly in the past 10 years.2 Because MRSA is circulating widely in the general population, primary-care clinicians must be prepared to recognize it, treat it effectively and take steps to reduce its transmission."

    "Many people mistake the first signs of methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA) infection for a spider bite. In fact, what appears as a small, red pimple could be the start of a potentially serious infection with a staphylococcus that is impervious to many antibiotics and poses an increasing threat in the community setting.
"

    PB
     
  8. The Snark

    The Snark هرج و مرج مهندس Old Timer

    Could you please clarify whom you are quoting? It's a bit confusing. Especially the "any of these reactions in a child, would greatly increase the immortality chances."
     
  9. Phrynus

    Phrynus Arachnosquire

    http://www.clinicaladvisor.com/updated-information-on-mrsa-infections/article/218133/

    If you run a search, you will find a landslide of information about MRSA.

    "any of these reactions in a child, would greatly increase the immortality chances." - I mistyped,,, meant to say mortality,,,

    ---------- Post added 12-17-2014 at 06:25 PM ----------

    "Any of these reactions in a child, would greatly increase the mortality chances.",,,,,,
    this was not in quotations in my original post, this is my statement and it holds true. Bacterial (mrsa) infections in the elderly and the young take more of a toll. An elderly person or a young person with mrsa resulting in necrotizing pneumonia, disseminated invasive ostemyelitis, septic arthritis or endocarditis definitely have a higher chance of mortality.
    PB
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2014
  10. The Snark

    The Snark هرج و مرج مهندس Old Timer

    Excuse. I'm not accusing. I was just confused by the obvious miswording. I just posted something in this regard, 'Kid dies from..." and spider bites in general.

    MRSA is very significant. It is also the tip of an impending iceberg on a direct collision course with much of the human population of the planet. A product of irresponsibility of the medical profession. The over use and abuse of antibiotics has trained, evolved, bacterias, some initially rather harmless and easily treatable, into lethal predators. This training appears to have made it's presence well known with the staph strains for the obvious reason that staph is so mutable. It's genetic structure alters with each subsequent generation. But many more organisms are waiting in the wings to get their chance. Some already are exceptionally lethal.
    This has turned the human race, or should turn, into a group of terrified paranoiacs. Every poke that causes bleeding should be scrubbed with a powerful antiseptic agent since staph is ubiquitous. And until we get a grip, this is only going to get worse.
     
  11. Venom

    Venom Arachnoprince Old Timer

    Generally I would agree that infections should be considered at least as likely, or more so, than necrosis from "a spider bite," if the culprit isn't seen. In this case, though, I don't think there's any reason to suspect MRSA or other bacterial agent as the cause of death. The boy felt that something had "stung" him on the shoulder. His mother found a spider IN his shirt seconds later, and killed it. They kept the spider. As to ID'ing the spider his mother killed on-site, the article I link to below has a photo of the actual spider in question. It is plainly a recluse spider. I think we have a good chain of evidence here to link that specific spider with the bite on the boy's shoulder.

    The child's condition worsened so rapidly that I really doubt it could have been a Staph infection. He was dead in 14 hours. If you read the article describing the "descent to death," the nurses' comments on his symptoms are enlightening:

    http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2014/11/mom_describes_daylong_descent.html#comments



    Quote from link given below:

    "Mike Howell, a retired Samford University professor who co-authored "Spiders of the Eastern United States: A Photographic Guide," confirmed through the photographs that the spider that bit Branson was a brown recluse."

    Also, Vetter has already chimed in:

    http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2014/12/brown_recluse_spider_bite_deat.html#incart_related_stories


    As freakishly rare as it may be, I think this "recluse bite" is actually legitimate.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2014
  12. The Snark

    The Snark هرج و مرج مهندس Old Timer

    I'm sorry but that report from Jessica is, at best, highly dramatized. "Yelling" "For O-Neg blood" No. That's not remotely part of any code blue I've ever encountered or heard of. Whole blood TYPE request is written. The lab knows and decides the type. The actual verbal request is, according to P&P, JCAH, "Whole blood stat." Made by a physician.
    "At Huntsville, his head and stomach started hurting. They put him on oxygen," No. He would have been transferred with a nasal cannula.

    So she remembered incorrectly, understandable. Just produce some reference to the actual medical records. The code blue would have been documented minute by minute. There will be a pathologists impressions. Some real world documentation, please. Just a little! The entire thing is dramatized. It's a take from an ER scene on TV or a movie.


    Look/ I'm saying this not to be a rabble rouser or I desire to contradict. People learn their medical knowledge from TV and movies and the drama that is injected into them. The entire interview is obviously, to any medical professional who has been in on code blue, dramatic BS.
    A code blue COULD be total chaos. Therefore it is an extremely coordinated procedure. Each person has a place, a job, and rigid procedures how to carry out the job. Some things are absolutely forbidden, such as yelling. There is, sometimes, a physician or more than one present, but they are not required. There is both ER and ICU trauma intervention trained staff. With the exception of experienced ER physicians, doctors are not trained and practiced in trauma intervention/code blue. Their position at a code blue is medical reference authority and they remain off to the side out of the action. Keep in mind an experienced ER or ICU nurse has performed dozens of defibs for every one a doctor has participated in. There will be an RT and often a lab 'runner', a tech. There is always someone on the side writing each and every action taken on a white board. The documented TREND which is critical. All personnel can see at a glance every thing done, all drugs, all. We work in silence so we can hear the team leaders instructions which are spoken in a clear commanding voice.
    Throw the drama out the window. And please, don't think what you have seen on those ER shows is even remotely like the real world.

    PS Explain this: "They shocked him," she said. "I was in the room when they shocked him for the 17th time, and I knew there was nothing else in this world that they could do for him. I told them it was time to stop."
    She was counting. Pretty cool headed. I'm impressed. That average person would be over in the corner puking their guts out from the smell of burned flesh. She then superseded all trained medical personnel and called off the code. Does anyone know who has the authority to call off a code blue? Can anyone simply give a verbal instruction to medical staff to let a relative die without proper procedures being enacted?

    Real world: Parent unlikely to be present in room. Might be able to watch the code procedure from window or door. We usually intervene and have them removed, even using Dr. Strong, as a person's last views of a loved one shouldn't be the reflexes of defibbing. Attempt to resus failing. POD is present. After about 20 minutes full arrest no sinus wave, more likely flat line and all trend is negative, POD calls the code. Goes to parent, explains.

    ---------- Post added 12-18-2014 at 10:55 AM ----------

    Addendum.
    People tend to color their worlds, Fill in the blanks. In hospitals during emergencies we all have one failing. We don't have someone filling in a relative or loved one with blow by blow accounts of what we are doing. So this Jessica made up from some TV show what wasn't there, embellishing things. And making mistakes. Pardon me if I include standard police questioning procedures. Reread her account:

    "The nurse came out in the hallway and sat down," Jessica said. "They told me his heart had stopped."
    It was 11:30 p.m.
    Jessica said the medical staff were doing everything they could to make his blood clot. She said she was told his organs were bleeding.
    "They shocked him," she said. "I was in the room when they shocked him for the 17th time, and I knew there was nothing else in this world that they could do for him. I told them it was time to stop."


    Which? She called the code or the nurse came in and she was in a waiting room? Who explained they were trying to make the blood clot? Internal organ(S) were bleeding. Yes, we can deduce if there is an internal hemorrhage but only an autopsy can discover if more than one internal organ was involved. And no autopsy report is cited.

    There is absolutely no proof beyond circumstantial evidence reported by someone who is unable to keep her story straight that the cause of death was the venom of a recluse.

    And BTW, showing that crap image that could be just about any spider and putting it beside a quality image of a recluse... there is a legal term for this and that is a really good way of getting the evidence tossed out of court as inadmissible.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2014
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