Keeping P. muticus on shallow substrate..

[Venom1080]

Opinions?

There's alot of stories about king baboons starving and dehydrating themselves rather than come up from their burrows. Preventing them from having such a system would make sure they can't do that to themselves. Tom Moran has a good video on this.

I'm usually of the opinion that if a spider wants to do something, the keeper should provide every chance for it to do so. But I'm not quite sure with these guys.

Rehousing my girl soon as I want to experiment with different burrowing substrates, and I don't really like the look of coco fiber anymore. Was curious as how much sub people think should be provided.

Man, I hope Chris doesn't see this..

 

[EulersK]

I say give it a shot. Worst case scenario is that you'll end up with a perpetual stress curl, in which case you'd just rehouse back into a burrowing setup. Be sure to give us an update on how it turns out, I'll be watching this thread.

 

[AphonopelmaTX]

My experience with obligate burrowers such as P. muticus is such that they have to kept like a plant. You need soil that will retain its shape when dug out and provides drainage for water. When the tarantula finishes its burrow and you stop seeing it, periodically pouring water onto the substrate will be the means for it to stay hydrated. When done correctly, water will drain from the top of the soil and into the burrow chamber the tarantula rests in. As the soil dries, it will dry from the top down allowing more moisture at the bottom of the container where the burrow is. Water that drains into the burrow chamber provides a pool the tarantula can drink from (assuming the tarantula will burrow down to the very bottom of its container), the added moisture keeps the tarantula from desiccating to quickly to where you wouldn't have to flood the container too often. The frequency of watering this way depends on what habitat the tarantula comes from. Something like P. muticus wouldn't need to have its entire container and burrow flooded, just enough water poured in for the water to drain and form a small pool in the burrow. Tropical species need to have the entire container flooded regularly. It would also be helpful to know in advance that if you, or anyone, goes with this method of housing obligate burrowers, water shouldn't be poured directly into the burrow. Just around it or over the area the burrow chamber is.

I've been doing things this way for a variety of tarantulas in my own collection that either do the "free standing" burrow or build a scrape style burrow where they dig underneath an object and notice they hardly leave the burrow except to wait for passing crickets. I also add a water cup (2 oz. condiment cup) near the entrance to burrows as a fail safe. In my experience, once a high strung obligate burrowing tarantula becomes established, it won't come out of the burrow even to drink so the water cup needs to be near by so the tarantula can find it and not have to wander to the opposite end of the cage.

 

[TownesVanZandt]

Opinions?

There's alot of stories about king baboons starving and dehydrating themselves rather than come up from their burrows. Preventing them from having such a system would make sure they can't do that to themselves. Tom Moran has a good video on this.

I'm usually of the opinion that if a spider wants to do something, the keeper should provide every chance for it to do so. But I'm not quite sure with these guys.

Rehousing my girl soon as I want to experiment with different burrowing substrates, and I don't really like the look of coco fiber anymore. Was curious as how much sub people think should be provided.

Is it a problem that P.muticus will starve and/or dehydrate themselves if given enough substrate? I only have four small ones and they don´t seem to have any trouble finding their prey items and staying hydrated. I have also never seen this a problem with other OW obligate burrowers given a lot of substrate, but I would interested as well to see how this experiment turns out. Please keep us updated

Man, I hope Chris doesn't see this..

Don´t you worry, I will under no circumstances take a screen shot of your thread and send it to him

 

[Venom1080]

I say give it a shot. Worst case scenario is that you'll end up with a perpetual stress curl, in which case you'd just rehouse back into a burrowing setup. Be sure to give us an update on how it turns out, I'll be watching this thread.

Those were my first thoughts as well.

My experience with obligate burrowers such as P. muticus is such that they have to kept like a plant. You need soil that will retain its shape when dug out and provides drainage for water. When the tarantula finishes its burrow and you stop seeing it, periodically pouring water onto the substrate will be the means for it to stay hydrated. When done correctly, water will drain from the top of the soil and into the burrow chamber the tarantula rests in. As the soil dries, it will dry from the top down allowing more moisture at the bottom of the container where the burrow is. Water that drains into the burrow chamber provides a pool the tarantula can drink from (assuming the tarantula will burrow down to the very bottom of its container), the added moisture keeps the tarantula from desiccating to quickly to where you wouldn't have to flood the container too often. The frequency of watering this way depends on what habitat the tarantula comes from. Something like P. muticus wouldn't need to have its entire container and burrow flooded, just enough water poured in for the water to drain and form a small pool in the burrow. Tropical species need to have the entire container flooded regularly. It would also be helpful to know in advance that if you, or anyone, goes with this method of housing obligate burrowers, water shouldn't be poured directly into the burrow. Just around it or over the area the burrow chamber is.

I've been doing things this way for a variety of tarantulas in my own collection that either do the "free standing" burrow or build a scrape style burrow where they dig underneath an object and notice they hardly leave the burrow except to wait for passing crickets. I also add a water cup (2 oz. condiment cup) near the entrance to burrows as a fail safe. In my experience, once a high strung obligate burrowing tarantula becomes established, it won't come out of the burrow even to drink so the water cup needs to be near by so the tarantula can find it and not have to wander to the opposite end of the cage.

That's more or less what I've been doing. I have noticed every OB besides muticus to be out at least once a week. Usually early in the morning. And not just their feet either. But full on roaming the cage. I've never seen my muticus out on its own. So weird.

Is it a problem that P.muticus will starve and/or dehydrate themselves if given enough substrate? I only have four small ones and they don´t seem to have any trouble finding their prey items and staying hydrated. I have also never seen this a problem with other OW obligate burrowers given a lot of substrate, but I would interested as well to see how this experiment turns out. Please keep us updated



Don´t you worry, I will under no circumstances take a screen shot of your thread and send it to him

I started noticing that with mine at around 3".
Much appreciated.

 

[FrDoc]

I recently acquired a 3 year-old, 5 inch female. She was reportedly raised in an enclosure with shallow substrate. I did some research, and asked some individuals whom I knew kept P. Muticus for their opinion. The deep substrate folks advised approximately 12 inches. I decided on the via media and set her up with right around 8 inches. I used half coco-fiber and half top soil. She excavated a double opening burrow in less than 24 hours. She also comes out frequently. There is hardly ever an evening that goes by without me seeing her prowling about the surface for about 10-15 minutes. So, at least this particular specimen is satisfied with such a set up.

 

[Venom1080]

I recently acquired a 3 year-old, 5 inch female. She was reportedly raised in an enclosure with shallow substrate. I did some research, and asked some individuals whom I knew kept P. Muticus for their opinion. The deep substrate folks advised approximately 12 inches. I decided on the via media and set her up with right around 8 inches. I used half coco-fiber and half top soil. She excavated a double opening burrow in less than 24 hours. She also comes out frequently. There is hardly ever an evening that goes by without me seeing her prowling about the surface for about 10-15 minutes. So, at least this particular specimens is satisfied with such a set up.

Good to hear she's doing well for you.

I'll be switching out the cage tomorrow. She's molted 9 days ago and I'm fattening her up real quick before I rehouse her.

 

[Tomoran]

Opinions?

There's alot of stories about king baboons starving and dehydrating themselves rather than come up from their burrows. Preventing them from having such a system would make sure they can't do that to themselves. Tom Moran has a good video on this.

I'm usually of the opinion that if a spider wants to do something, the keeper should provide every chance for it to do so. But I'm not quite sure with these guys.

Rehousing my girl soon as I want to experiment with different burrowing substrates, and I don't really like the look of coco fiber anymore. Was curious as how much sub people think should be provided.

Man, I hope Chris doesn't see this..

I would be very curious to hear how it turned out.

After posting that video, I had a lot of people either comment or email me about similar experiences with the P. muticus not surfacing to eat. Although it obviously doesn't happen with all of them, many reported that their specimens wouldn't surface to eat, and there were quite a few spider deaths that owners only discovered after finally digging them up. It definitely seemed like it was a prevalent enough issue to warrant some thought.

I had it happen with two slings, and later my two juveniles had buried themselves for months, never once surfacing for food even after molts. Although it flew in the face of everything I had been taught about tarantulas (I normally NEVER open up burrows), I opened one of their entrances and dropped a cricket it. This guy was ravenous, grabbing the cricket immediately. I opened the other spider's burrow, and same thing. Both ended up eating two or three crickets that day, and continued to eat well for the next few weeks before finally closing off the burrows again. Although I rehoused both into more shallow substrate with a bit less depth, they still bury themselves and I still have to check if they are hungry. In fact, I just opened one the other night after noticing an old molt and a tiny abdomen, and it quickly at two large crickets.

One point that was discussed is that in the wild, they have very long burrows, and there is a real possibility that they find food underground. It's also been speculated that maybe there is some type of environmental trigger that causes them to do this, or their missing the trigger that tells them that it's time to come up. I honestly don't know what it is.

One keeper I spoke to had been keeping his almost terrestrially with a hide for years, and the growth rate he reported was amazing. Granted, because they were unable to burrow, he had much more ornery spiders to deal with. Another moved his to more shallow substrate after seeing the video, and last I heard it was doing well and growing quickly.

Obviously, it seems that not every keeper experiences this issue, so I certainly wouldn't advocate that we suggest keeping them all terrestrially. If your muticus is burrowing and eating, let it be. I WOULD say that enough folks have experienced this issue that it should be mentioned and hobbyists that keep this species should be aware of the potential issues to that can take the proper steps if they experience it.

 

[Venom1080]

I would be very curious to hear how it turned out.

After posting that video, I had a lot of people either comment or email me about similar experiences with the P. muticus not surfacing to eat. Although it obviously doesn't happen with all of them, many reported that their specimens wouldn't surface to eat, and there were quite a few spider deaths that owners only discovered after finally digging them up. It definitely seemed like it was a prevalent enough issue to warrant some thought.

I had it happen with two slings, and later my two juveniles had buried themselves for months, never once surfacing for food even after molts. Although it flew in the face of everything I had been taught about tarantulas (I normally NEVER open up burrows), I opened one of their entrances and dropped a cricket it. This guy was ravenous, grabbing the cricket immediately. I opened the other spider's burrow, and same thing. Both ended up eating two or three crickets that day, and continued to eat well for the next few weeks before finally closing off the burrows again. Although I rehoused both into more shallow substrate with a bit less depth, they still bury themselves and I still have to check if they are hungry. In fact, I just opened one the other night after noticing an old molt and a tiny abdomen, and it quickly at two large crickets.

One point that was discusses is that in the wild, they have very long burrows, and there is a real possibility that they find food underground. It's also been speculated that maybe there is some type of environmental trigger that causes them to do this, or their missing the trigger that tells them that it's time to come up. I honestly don't know what it is.

One keeper I spoke to had been keeping his almost terrestrially with a hide for years, and the growth rate he reported was amazing. Granted, because they were unable to burrow, he had much more ornery spiders to deal with. Another moved his to more shallow substrate after seeing the video, and last I heard it was doing well and growing quickly.

Obviously, it seems that not every keeper experiences this issue, so I certainly wouldn't advocate that we suggest keeping them all terrestrially. If your muticus is burrowing and eating, let it be. I WOULD say that enough folks have experienced this issue that it should be mentioned and hobbyists that keep this species should be aware of the potential issues to that can take the proper steps if they experience it.

Ironic actually, I had to open her burrow to get her to feed after her molt 9 days ago. Took a big superworm yesterday, so I'll be rehousing today.

Interesting point about finding food underground. I'm not sure how feasible that is, but it makes sense.

 

[bryverine]

I recently acquired a 3 year-old, 5 inch female. She was reportedly raised in an enclosure with shallow substrate. I did some research, and asked some individuals whom I knew kept P. Muticus for their opinion. The deep substrate folks advised approximately 12 inches. I decided on the via media and set her up with right around 8 inches. I used half coco-fiber and half top soil. She excavated a double opening burrow in less than 24 hours. She also comes out frequently. There is hardly ever an evening that goes by without me seeing her prowling about the surface for about 10-15 minutes. So, at least this particular specimen is satisfied with such a set up.

I recently posted about my girl in a death curl at the end of her tunnel. Shes doing pretty well now, but she still hasn't left her "chamber" in the back.

I have her in an enclosure where she can burrow about 8" down. Her entire tunnel length is roughly 40" including the drop. She used to make regular excursions to the surface... I wonder why she stopped...

I would be very curious to hear how it turned out.

After posting that video, I had a lot of people either comment or email me about similar experiences with the P. muticus not surfacing to eat. Although it obviously doesn't happen with all of them, many reported that their specimens wouldn't surface to eat, and there were quite a few spider deaths that owners only discovered after finally digging them up. It definitely seemed like it was a prevalent enough issue to warrant some thought.

I had it happen with two slings, and later my two juveniles had buried themselves for months, never once surfacing for food even after molts. Although it flew in the face of everything I had been taught about tarantulas (I normally NEVER open up burrows), I opened one of their entrances and dropped a cricket it. This guy was ravenous, grabbing the cricket immediately. I opened the other spider's burrow, and same thing. Both ended up eating two or three crickets that day, and continued to eat well for the next few weeks before finally closing off the burrows again. Although I rehoused both into more shallow substrate with a bit less depth, they still bury themselves and I still have to check if they are hungry. In fact, I just opened one the other night after noticing an old molt and a tiny abdomen, and it quickly at two large crickets.

One point that was discusses is that in the wild, they have very long burrows, and there is a real possibility that they find food underground. It's also been speculated that maybe there is some type of environmental trigger that causes them to do this, or their missing the trigger that tells them that it's time to come up. I honestly don't know what it is.

One keeper I spoke to had been keeping his almost terrestrially with a hide for years, and the growth rate he reported was amazing. Granted, because they were unable to burrow, he had much more ornery spiders to deal with. Another moved his to more shallow substrate after seeing the video, and last I heard it was doing well and growing quickly.

Obviously, it seems that not every keeper experiences this issue, so I certainly wouldn't advocate that we suggest keeping them all terrestrially. If your muticus is burrowing and eating, let it be. I WOULD say that enough folks have experienced this issue that it should be mentioned and hobbyists that keep this species should be aware of the potential issues to that can take the proper steps if they experience it.

Have you found any documents or studies (not likely, huh ) that discuss them finding food underground? I can easily see them finding water but the food thing would make so much sense. In captivity, they're pretty limited to how large and complex they can make their tunnels.

Something just struck me that I never thought about before. My girl started off by digging around, made a cavern at the end of the tunnel (i can only assume trying to find a way around the "rock" that was the enclosure) and finally filling in the cavern and settling on the end of her tunnel after it stands. I would love to see way they would do in a 200 gallon tank and study their eating habits with this type of setup.

 

[Tomoran]

I recently posted about my girl in a death curl at the end of her tunnel. Shes doing pretty well now, but she still hasn't left her "chamber" in the back.

I have her in an enclosure where she can burrow about 8" down. Her entire tunnel length is roughly 40" including the drop. She used to make regular excursions to the surface... I wonder why she stopped...


Have you found any documents or studies (not likely, huh ) that discuss them finding food underground? I can easily see them finding water but the food thing would make so much sense. In captivity, they're pretty limited to how large and complex they can make their tunnels.

Something just struck me that I never thought about before. My girl started off by digging around, made a cavern at the end of the tunnel (i can only assume trying to find a way around the "rock" that was the enclosure) and finally filling in the cavern and settling on the end of her tunnel after it stands. I would love to see way they would do in a 200 gallon tank and study their eating habits with this type of setup.

In their original enclosures, mine burrowed down 9-10" to the bottom, then dug out a tunnel all around the perimeter. After taking a couple crickets, they both filled in their entrances and sat in the far corner for months.

Unfortunately, I haven't found any studies or documents talking about this. I DID have a keeper who was familiar with their natural habitat who was able to note several possible prey sources they could find underground. Again, I don't know if this is the case, and there would be no way to prove it without field research. Still, it's a compelling idea.

 

[YagerManJennsen]

I do not own P. muticus; However I was wondering how a horizontally orientated burrow with shallower substrate might help in this situation.

 

[cold blood]

My experience with obligate burrowers such as P. muticus is such that they have to kept like a plant. You need soil that will retain its shape when dug out and provides drainage for water. When the tarantula finishes its burrow and you stop seeing it, periodically pouring water onto the substrate will be the means for it to stay hydrated. When done correctly, water will drain from the top of the soil and into the burrow chamber the tarantula rests in. As the soil dries, it will dry from the top down allowing more moisture at the bottom of the container where the burrow is. Water that drains into the burrow chamber provides a pool the tarantula can drink from (assuming the tarantula will burrow down to the very bottom of its container), the added moisture keeps the tarantula from desiccating to quickly to where you wouldn't have to flood the container too often. The frequency of watering this way depends on what habitat the tarantula comes from. Something like P. muticus wouldn't need to have its entire container and burrow flooded, just enough water poured in for the water to drain and form a small pool in the burrow. Tropical species need to have the entire container flooded regularly. It would also be helpful to know in advance that if you, or anyone, goes with this method of housing obligate burrowers, water shouldn't be poured directly into the burrow. Just around it or over the area the burrow chamber is.

I've been doing things this way for a variety of tarantulas in my own collection that either do the "free standing" burrow or build a scrape style burrow where they dig underneath an object and notice they hardly leave the burrow except to wait for passing crickets. I also add a water cup (2 oz. condiment cup) near the entrance to burrows as a fail safe. In my experience, once a high strung obligate burrowing tarantula becomes established, it won't come out of the burrow even to drink so the water cup needs to be near by so the tarantula can find it and not have to wander to the opposite end of the cage.

My sentiments exactly...well said.


Keeping an obligate burrower without burrowing depth is a recipe for a super defensive t as well.

Most of the super defensive ones you will see on places like you tube, are invariably in enclosures set up by a substrate scrooge.

One point that was discusses is that in the wild, they have very long burrows, and there is a real possibility that they find food underground

I don't think there's any doubt that this happens....the earth is full of grubs and worms, and any active burrower, like a P. muticus or H. gigas for example, would likely happen upon a lot more of it due to the amount of earth they consistently move.


I mean go anywhere and dig...eventually you will find life....in dry areas, you just need to dig deeper.

 

[efmp1987]

Searching for food below ground is a nice theory. P. muticus morphology suggests complete subterranean habits. Deep/long burrows might point to underground foraging - not uncommon in the animal world.

 

[Tomoran]

I don't think there's any doubt that this happens....the earth is full of grubs and worms, and any active burrower, like a P. muticus or H. gigas for example, would likely happen upon a lot more of it due to the amount of earth they consistently move.


I mean go anywhere and dig...eventually you will find life....in dry areas, you just need to dig deeper.

Exactly! And considering how deep those burrows can get, it seems very plausible that both of those species find plenty to eat, especially during their more vulnerable sling and juvenile stages (which seems to be be when more folks have trouble with them not surfacing). I just didn't want to state it as fact, as I can't cite anything.

 

[Venom1080]

There are spiders that live completely underground with no contact with light.
They also have no eyes, P muticus do. That are def not completely subterranean dwellers.

 

[efmp1987]

Then there are also species have no idea

There are spiders that live completely underground with no contact with light.
They also have no eyes, P muticus do. That are def not completely subterranean dwellers.

Yep you're right. My poor choice of words. Males probably have and need to wander in search of females.

 

[Venom1080]

Males probably have and need to wander in search of females.

Agreed.
Mating would have to take place at least half way outside too.

 

[Nonnack]

There is a way to give spider deep substrate for burrowing and stil have access to burrow. It is 'C terrariums', looks like this:

 

[Venom1080]

There is a way to give spider deep substrate for burrowing and stil have access to burrow. It is 'C terrariums', looks like this:

That looks pretty cool..

Would need to have a better lid, most burrowers get pretty big.

Then there's the debate whether horizontal burrow length compared to vertical. Poec54 prefers horizontal, and he has quite the collection I think..