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Just a short, quick vid.

Discussion in 'Myriapods' started by Staehilomyces, Mar 10, 2018.

  1. Staehilomyces

    Staehilomyces Arachnoprince Active Member

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    This is a video that is basically announcing my new IG, but also shows some nice close ups of Gurthang being handled, as well as some footage of the bigger of my two Kuranda rubripes towards the end. Let me know what you think!
     
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  2. Whitelightning777

    Whitelightning777 Arachno-heretic Arachnosupporter

    I think handling is a really bad idea. Inverts have no real centralized brains to think of. They can't be trained like more advanced life forms, for example the hognose snake can.

    While it's great that you haven't been injured yet, it's only a matter of time before it happens if given the chance.

    At least get needle stick resistant tactical gloves like those used in law enforcement and welding leathers that extend up the arm.

    Better yet, I'd use a catch cup and a paint brush or some type of fishnet, a technique favored by deadly tarantula girl.

    Here is a video of an actual bite. The venom extraction is almost totally ineffective.

     
  3. Staehilomyces

    Staehilomyces Arachnoprince Active Member

    Well, I was prepared for comments like this...

    Centipedes will get used to handling to an extent that no tarantula or scorpion will. It seems you're quite new to the myriapod subforum, but by now, this is pretty common knowledge among many of the members here, particularly those who were here since Mastigoproctus was active (he was the one who started the whole centipede socialization thing).

    Also, I don't think I'll be emulating DTG's techniques...I prefer not to follow someone who keeps fossorial tarantulas on what appears to be cat litter.

    As for the video of the bite, I have reason to suspect his reaction was exaggerated - no one who has been envenomated by a Scolopendra heros (the one shown in the vid) went through that much pain. That's not to say it wouldn't hurt, however. Also, he bite he took was a double envenomation that he forced the pede to do. If a centipede is worked with properly, there is practically zero chance of taking a full envenomation while handling. At most, you may take a mild nip, but that's basically it, and even those are rare.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 24, 2018
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  4. Whitelightning777

    Whitelightning777 Arachno-heretic Arachnosupporter

    I saw another bite video involving a centipede. The first one was dry but not the second one.

    My cat got into a fight with one that broke into my last apartment. She is an ex feral rescue cat with a prey drive out of this world, killed between 5 to 10 roaches per day and lined them up in a straight line by her food dish all dead.

    She had a swollen paw and half of her face was swollen. The vet said no medication was safe because it could interact with the venom. Likewise the stress of transport could do the same thing.

    The girlfriend didn't preserve the body but insisted it was 6 inches long, which means it's not native to Baltimore.

    They can do serious damage.

    I have observed inverts at different temperatures. I heat my cages actually. The hotter they get, the more jumpy and defensive they become. Your body heat is 98.6, which if it were in an enclosure would border on or exceed dangerous levels. Thus, the more heat they absorb the more violent they become.

    That's all my tarantulas and both of my scorpions. If you must handle, keep it brief and chill them slightly probably into the mid to high 60s.

    Inverts aren't becoming used to you. You are becoming used to them. They can't be trained.
     
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  5. Staehilomyces

    Staehilomyces Arachnoprince Active Member

    Have you ever kept a pede? You only seem to be mentioning experience with tarantulas and scorpions - pedes are entirely different.

    You can keep talking about what a pede did to your cat, but in the end, it's redundant, as I'm not a ex-feral cat that was probably trying to kill the pede and thus causing it a good deal of bother.

    As for the rest, it makes theoretical sense if you assume that they're exactly the same as tarantulas and scorpions, but are you even going to bother looking into this? Other members like @LeFanDesBugs can back me up on this, and there are many videos on YT beside mine that show how centipedes get used to handling.
     
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  6. Whitelightning777

    Whitelightning777 Arachno-heretic Arachnosupporter

    I looked up the anatomy. They have gangilia, no brain no cerebral cortex and no learned behavior is necessary for development. Scorps and spiders work the same way.

    When the doctor hits your knee with a mallet, that's a gangilia in action which moves it.

    Squid, octupus, and cuttlefish are basically the only intelligent inverts.

    Think of it this way. If you lack wings you can't fly. Of course, just like a video game, humans can become attuned to the hardwired responses but sooner or later, mistakes happen.

    They are nature's perfect robots.
     
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  7. Greasylake

    Greasylake Arachnolord Active Member

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    If a pede were to bite you it would most likely be as a feeding response or to defend itself against something that it perceives as a threat. If you make sure the animal recognizes that you are not a meal or a threat then the chances of envomation are very low, and that's exactly what socialization does. Animals don't need complex brains in order to process and remember information, how else would a T remember where its burrow is or identify a vibration as potential prey or not?
     
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  8. Staehilomyces

    Staehilomyces Arachnoprince Active Member

    All inverts can learn. Indeed, basic learning has been observed in simpler creatures than arthropods. However, even though centipedes don't compare to cephalopods or Portia spiders (the latter of which are proof that arthropods can be intelligent), they have been observed by many experienced pede keepers to be more intelligent than scorps and Ts.
    Also, if the reason I seem to be able to safely handle this pede is because I'm getting used to it as opposed to vice versa, then surely after I'd gotten one like that, I'd be able to handle another pede of similar initial temperament from the get go. However, it doesn't work that way. It goes from square one with each new pede - this shows that the acclimation is on the pede's side, not mine.
    There was also a published article that suggested that pedes are intelligent, after a captive specimen demonstrated clearly that it remembered where a partially finished food item was (and was clearly not tracking it down by scent, due to the deliberation of its movements; something I have observed myself on multiple occasions). Furthermore, there are several accounts on IG that show pedes that have calmed down to being handled, namely bloomspike and the_centipede_whisperer.
    Finally, if you haven't any experience with pedes yourself, then you really aren't qualified to pick arguments with those who have, regardless of how much research you've apparently done.
     
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  9. Whitelightning777

    Whitelightning777 Arachno-heretic Arachnosupporter

    Probably squeezing or pinching could cause a problem. There may be the centipede version of E sp red or a curly hair but what species is it?

    In nature, these guys routinely kill and eat all types of spiders. In terms of the capacity to cause harm, it's obviously greater.

    If you ever watch monster big wars, it's a safe bet that the centipede will win any fight unless very quickly immobilized.

    If you mimic the stimuli of a harmless object, obviously they won't attack but you are adapting to them not the other way around.

    I've run the experiment, tapping twice on the right and once on the left before feeding. My snake caught on in about a month to 6 weeks. The inverts haven't learned a thing.

    A Roomba can remember where objects and obstacles are because it's a robot. That doesn't mean it's intelligent.
     
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  10. Staehilomyces

    Staehilomyces Arachnoprince Active Member

    This centipede is an Ethmostigmus rubripes. They're the most aggressive pedes in Australia. This one wasn't as nasty as some E. rubripes I've seen, but still pretty aggressive.

    As for their ability to kill and eat spiders, what relevance does that have to me? Am I a spider? Cats can kill venomous snakes - should I apply the same logic?
    The same applies for the fact that they win a lot of bug fights. What relevance does that have to their ability to acclimate to handling?

    Onto your next point, I'm not sure if you noticed that I was almost continually rubbing the pede's back with my thumb, and with quite some force. There's no way any wild E. rubripes would've let me do that - this one certainly wouldn't have when it was new.

    As for your experiment, were there any pedes in that collection? You can't just project your apparent experience with Ts and scorps onto pedes under the assumption that they are one and the same. Also, centipedes are more scent-oriented that they are to vibrations - as such, they get used to handling because they get used to my scent. That being said, they also get used to light.
     
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  11. Whitelightning777

    Whitelightning777 Arachno-heretic Arachnosupporter

    Try tapping the cage in the exact way before feeding it. Then once in a while delay feeding.

    See if it can learn.
     
  12. Staehilomyces

    Staehilomyces Arachnoprince Active Member

    Did you not read what I said about pedes being more scent oriented than vibration oriented?

    Also, please address my other points. Too often have I seen people letting unanswered arguments slip away - I will not move on until you have addressed my reason for suspecting that the pedes acclimate to me, and vice versa. Why, if it's merely me becoming more experienced, do I have to start from square one with each new pede?

    Also, have you kept any pedes for a substantial length of time?

    I will not continue this discussion until you answer these questions.
     
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  13. Dennis Nedry

    Dennis Nedry Arachnobaron Active Member

    Well from what I know all animals can learn by association to some extent, they've never found an animal that can't. So why assume that a centipede would be different? Worms can learn so why can't pedes?

    Well actually that's wrong, Cephalopods are not the only intelligent inverts. Mantis shrimp and jumping spiders are two perfect examples of this.

    For example Portia fimbriata is a spider that hunts other spiders, by your logic it should not be able to learn, however they absolutely do learn. They learn how to navigate the webs of other spiders, how to mimic the drumming of the males of other spiders to lure out a female, how to stalk different spider species all with time and practice and not by instinct.

    If you were to raise a portia spider on a diet of Latrodectus in their complex webs (Spider A) and another on other jumping spiders (Spider B) they'd have very different hunting strategies. Spider A would become fantastic at hunting on the webs of Latrodectus but wouldn't learn how to stalk a keen eyed jumping spider, whereas Spider B would use the "cryptic stalking" method of some portia individuals to easily hunt other jumpers but would be entirely lost on how it would go about hunting the Latrodectus in its complex web.

    Back to centipedes, it seems as though they test their enclosures for a point of escape and once they find one will use that to escape. When reintroduced it seems they remember the general direction of the area to escape. This is entirely anecdotal but it's something I've noticed with both my new rubripes and a cormocephalus I used to own
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2018
  14. Whitelightning777

    Whitelightning777 Arachno-heretic Arachnosupporter

    A Roomba remembers where the chair legs are. Of course any invert will map it's surroundings and be able to retreat to it's hide quickly. That's not really using logic.
     
  15. Dennis Nedry

    Dennis Nedry Arachnobaron Active Member

    Also I'd like to add that the brave wilderness thing is totally blown out of proportion, I might expect a reaction like that from a dehaani or Scolopendra sp. riau but never a heros. I got bitten by my rubripes and despite it not being a full envenomation it really wasn't that bad. It felt like somebody had stomped on my hand (and I know because it's happened before several times) which isn't nearly as bad as it sounds.

    A centipede won't want to waste valuable venom on something it can't eat, the centipede doesn't know that you are handling it and it doesn't know you're a person. All it knows is "I recognise this smell, this smell isn't food, this smell isn't danger" that's the most basic method of teaching with an animal.

    But it's still learning, is it not? A Roomba is not a good comparison, it's a device programmed by people to remember where things are. Centipedes do not get programmed by anything other than instinct, an instinct doesn't tell you where the last burrow you dug is
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 24, 2018
  16. Staehilomyces

    Staehilomyces Arachnoprince Active Member

    Also, a centipede can overcome instinct. A Roomba is not programmed to actively bump into furniture at first, and then learns to avoid it after. However, a centipede would be instinctively programmed to defend itself when threatened. However, when a socialised pede is being handled, I can get away with practically anything - I can pet them and even squeeze them, actions which would certainly trigger a defensive response on an unsocialised pede.

    And...please answer the two questions I stated before. I made them pretty clear.
     
  17. Dennis Nedry

    Dennis Nedry Arachnobaron Active Member

    He won't answer them because he can't. Same goes for an argument against the learning capabilities of Portia fimbriata, he doesn't have one. If you see this and do have a counter argument please post it
     
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  18. Venom1080

    Venom1080 Arachnoemperor Active Member

    This guy makes big statements with only inexperience and poor experiments to "back it up". Ignore him.
     
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  19. Staehilomyces

    Staehilomyces Arachnoprince Active Member

    I saw that heated debate on the T forum (pun intended), so I sort of knew what to expect. We'll see how this goes on...
     
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  20. Whitelightning777

    Whitelightning777 Arachno-heretic Arachnosupporter

    Ok, while wearing bite proof gloves, place food into the enclosure and wait for it to eat. Then, try to pick it up. It's not used to you as a keeper.

    In fact, hold some cricket chow or whatever you feed the feeders in your hand and with a glove try to handle it.

    It's possible that your scent simply means you're classified as an inedible object by the neural networks and reflexes. I wouldn't try any new cologne around it.

    An intelligent animal that's scent orientated can figure out what's what when multiple smells abound.

    You will either get bitten upon the glove or the pede will retreat because it'll identify you as a feeder but to large to capture.

    It's no different then a smoke detector lacking the ability to tell incence from a dangerous fire.

    They're robots, most inverts anyway.
    We don't have the source code.
    We don't have the root password.

    Bluetooth and USB keyboards won't plug in.

    In all seriousness, train it to walk through a ring 3 times to get a cricket. I doubt it'll work. That's not preprogrammed behavior.