Is my B. vagans dying or dehydrated or just being a weird spider?

Sarkhan42

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She came from a pet shop where we’ve bought several other Ts without incident. My boyfriend is definitely not the cleaning type, so I really doubt it’s a cleaning product, but I guess there’s always a possibility? Could like cologne or something sprayed within the same room have any effect? That’s all I can even think of and I’ve been wracking my brain for days while I try and keep watch over her and figure out wtf to do.

I’ll see if I can get some video, I’d have to kinda give her a poke or something with the tongs since I doubt she’ll move otherwise.
Unfortunately our understanding of exactly what can cause neurological issues is pretty limited, we know that flea/tick treatments for pets, as well as other pesticides, absolutely cause it, with some suspicion around cleaning chemicals, but outside that it’s just much easier to identify that a tarantula is experiencing the issue over what might’ve been the source.
 

maggiefiasco

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Oh no... yeah I just spent a while reading all this. She’s become pretty insane now, it really seems like this is the case here.

I don’t think the cause is similar, as we do have animals but don’t treat them with flea medicine. We don’t use cleaning sprays of any kind normally either, certainly not in their room.

Really sad to know that this has no real answer, or cause, people are just speculating on what could cause these symptoms. But I think you guys may be right with this DKS thing. :((((
 

Lokee85

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I hate to say it, but aside from avoiding chemicals around your Ts (which it seems you pretty much already do), all you can do is keep observing her and wait. Most issues with spiders are only exacerbated by our attempts to intervene. I've heard of some with DKS symptoms that pulled through, so hopefully yours is one of the lucky ones.
 

Sarkhan42

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Oh no... yeah I just spent a while reading all this. She’s become pretty insane now, it really seems like this is the case here.

I don’t think the cause is similar, as we do have animals but don’t treat them with flea medicine. We don’t use cleaning sprays of any kind normally either, certainly not in their room.

Really sad to know that this has no real answer, or cause, people are just speculating on what could cause these symptoms. But I think you guys may be right with this DKS thing. :((((
Keep the faith. I’ve heard of a few cases of Ts with DKS making it after reaching their next molt, so don’t give up hope quite yet. Best thing to do is keep food and water available and let her do her spider thing.
 

maggiefiasco

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MANY thanks to you both for your knowledge and empathy here. I’m going I try and bother her as little as possible and just see what happens.

Have any of you had to put a spider in the freezer before? I hate to even think of it, but as gingers condition worsens, my bf and I have been discussing possibilities for his T. She’s spent most her life with him, not me, and he’s pretty attached to her. I just don’t want to prolong suffering if that’s her ultimate end...

Also, should I worry now about my other Ts?? They’re in the same room with her.
 

Sarkhan42

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645E3E21-205B-49EF-9915-5707FAF923AC.jpeg
MANY thanks to you both for your knowledge and empathy here. I’m going I try and bother her as little as possible and just see what happens.

Have any of you had to put a spider in the freezer before? I hate to even think of it, but as gingers condition worsens, my bf and I have been discussing possibilities for his T. She’s spent most her life with him, not me, and he’s pretty attached to her. I just don’t want to prolong suffering if that’s her ultimate end...

Also, should I worry now about my other Ts?? They’re in the same room with her.
I wouldn’t worry about keeping her with them, it’s not something that spreads and it sounds like she started being symptomatic at your bfs place.

As for the freezing, unfortunately yes. I ended up freezing my mature male C. cyaneopubescens a few months ago. He got to the point where he curled up and would just shake and twitch when disturbed because of his age, and I just couldn’t see him go out like that. Raised the little guy from a tiny sling, he was one of my first. He did give me a bunch of babies though, so his legacy lives on.
 

maggiefiasco

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View attachment 261926

I wouldn’t worry about keeping her with them, it’s not something that spreads and it sounds like she started being symptomatic at your bfs place.

As for the freezing, unfortunately yes. I ended up freezing my mature male C. cyaneopubescens a few months ago. He got to the point where he curled up and would just shake and twitch when disturbed because of his age, and I just couldn’t see him go out like that. Raised the little guy from a tiny sling, he was one of my first. He did give me a bunch of babies though, so his legacy lives on.
He initially described it to me by saying he’d dropped a cricket in with her and she didn’t move. She’s usually a good eater. Thinking “oh maybe pre molt” since she refused her food, he was a little shocked to see her do 2 Laps around her tank, at really fast speed only a moment later, with seemingly no Provocation. He thought that a bit odd, but disregarded it.

But She’s been going on that way ever since. Extremely sluggish and seeming typical of premolt behavior for a while... then randomly spazzing out. Moving extremely quickly with no real coordination or plan.

About 30 minutes ago, I saw her looking very curled beneath her hide. I thought “oh no, this is it :(“ especially after she didn’t react to me very gently blowing on her. I got the tongs out to do a welfare check and she attacked the tongs, then spasmodically ran about the tank, kicking over her water before coming to a rest on the overturned bottle cap. Scared the shit out of me, but she’s still alive and fighting.

I guess we’ll just go with plan”Wait and See” and hope she can molt our of this and save herself :(((


PS: Love the color on that old man GBB! I’ve got a C. cyaneopubsens myself and he/she is just gorgeous. That orange and blue is just tops. Sorry you had to let him go, but you’re right, he lives on :)
 

Anoplogaster

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Can anyone here actually make any sort of useful reply to my query on her strange behavior rather than joining the parade of people criticizing the freaking enclosure?
Strange behavior could be from many things. From the provided photos, it looked like a fall was a possibility.

Don’t be so short-tempered.
 

maggiefiasco

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Strange behavior could be from many things. From the provided photos, it looked like a fall was a possibility.

Don’t be so short-tempered.
I do realize that I sounded frantic, and I was! because I’d grown increasingly scared for her wellbeing as her behavior grew more and more erratic.

Sadly I now think the likeliest conclusion is DKS and I’ve no choice but to wait and see. :(

I do appreciate the helpful input and I apologize for any rudeness but gosh it’s frustrating. I’ve got several Ts and they’re all in appropriately sized containers. A fall is one of the least likely scenarios but at this point I’d almost rather it be that than what I think it is :(
 

cold blood

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As far as ventilation/moisture goes, it's pretty dry in there
Vagans, along with albopilosum, actually prefer damp sub....now both do fine dry, but when its super dry in our homes, like in winter, keeping them dry isn't the best idea. Adding a larger water dish is another thing to consider.

Never mist, actually pour water onto the sub. I don't like the suggestion you commonly see of "overflow the dish", as this keeps an area perpetually damp, which is a magnet for molds and pests. Its best to rotate the damp areas, letting them periodically dry out.

I only keep my Avics humid
First off, don't concentrate on humidity....when you hear a t needs humidity, it really means damp substrate. Your ambient humidity will dictate how much water you need to add, and how often as well.

That said, Avics are very intolerant of such damp conditions, and the constant harping of humidity in so many places like care sheets are precisely why they get the reputation as "fragile". They live high in trees, which dry quickly, even after torrential douwnpours....this is a genus that always does best kept dry with a water dish. Misting here is ok, but just a spritz for a convenient drinking opportunity.

Not actively trying to keep it damp in there, at any rate
Its definitely something to consider.

Yes. It’s kinda uncoordinated. Like she will be very still for a long while, then when she does move by herself or due to stimulus, it’s like she’s freaking out and flailing around almost?

She flipped over once while still inside her hide, then her claws seemed to get stuck on the bottom of the inside of the bark hide. She seemed to realize thsy she didn’t have enough overhead clearance, so then moved outside her hide to flip over once more in the soft dry substrate where she had more room.

She has since flipped back over upright and retreated to her hide again. She’s not made any more really purposeful, focused, coordinated efforts to move since. I’m growing more concerned as this seems to be deteriorating rather than improving.
Now, much of what was described earlier could be pre-molt....and now these DKS symptoms:confused:.....these, as mentioned, are typically associated with poisoning of some sorts, and that is generally the case...but its also something that can be seen in cases of dehydration (amongst other factors we may not yet be aware of). Since there is nothing one can do for poisoning that we know of, treating the dehydration as you are doing is the best approach IMO.


Ts don't flip, then flip back, and repeat this process while molting, its certainly a sign of a problem.
Have any of you had to put a spider in the freezer before? I
Do not consider this. As bad as it looks, its not in pain (no pain receptors)...and ts certainly can come through such dismal looking circumstances. Keep it damper and give it time....not much else to do at this point.

I once had a serious poisoning incident when a neighbor sprayed his lawn on a hot summer day when my windows were open....I lost many ts...but at least as many pulled through and are still with me today....I never just give up.

Should it survive, I would suggest a smaller hide...like about 3 times smaller. Ts are comforted by tighter places. Ideally the t should just barely fit under the hide. This can also be accomplished by essentially burying the hide, just leaving a small area for it to get under....this allows the t to excavate as it sees fit....burying the hide also removes the biggest fall risk in the enclosure, and being a smallish enclosure, the hard hide takes up a fair amount of space. Just something for future consideration, anyway.
 

maggiefiasco

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Now DKS isn't a conclusion...its just a symptom...like a runny nose...its not a diagnosis....much like a runny nose can mean lots of differing things, so can these symptoms.
Thank you for all your knowledge! I’ve already sort of buried her hide or rather built it into the back corner, but it could certainly go down another inch if that would make her feel safer. I will do this, as well as rotating the spots in her enclosure that I dampen, not just around the water dish.

The more I’ve read today about DKS, I’ve come to understand just what you’ve said: It’s a symptom, but not a cause of what’s ailing her. I can’t think what could have triggered this, as we’ve ruled out all the likeliest culprits. Not understanding exactly why this has befallen her, I’m now just faced with waiting and seeing her through this, live or die. All I know is that this flipping back and forth, attacking things, frantic motions without purpose is not normal. I’m glad to know it’s not causing her to “suffer” per se, as that was one of my big concerns. It looks very similar to seizures in humans, so I was actually wondering if this was causing her pain.

One thing I’d like to know is, has anyone definitively seen a T “molt out of” or through this and survive? I keep reading it’s possible, but does it seem likely to be true?
 

Sarkhan42

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@boina may I ask what makes you disagree with my suggestion? Even OP agrees after doing her own research.
 

boina

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@boina may I ask what makes you disagree with my suggestion? Even OP agrees after doing her own research.
Sorry, I'm not disagreeing that the tarantula may very well show the symptoms called DKS.

I do disagree with the conclusion: DKS = Exposure to 'chemicals'.

DKS are a set of neurological symptoms and we have no clue what actually causes it. Whereas it is right that it may be caused by exposure to pesticides it also has been observed in tarantulas that had no exposure to anything. For all we know it may be caused by some degenerative neuronal disease we've never even heard of.

DKS describes a set of symptoms and is not a disease in itself. Cold Blood explained that a few posts up. DKS is not a solution, it's just a description.
 

Sarkhan42

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Sorry, I'm not disagreeing that the tarantula may very well show the symptoms called DKS.

I do disagree with the conclusion: DKS = Exposure to 'chemicals'.

DKS are a set of neurological symptoms and we have no clue what actually causes it. Whereas it is right that it may be caused by exposure to pesticides it also has been observed in tarantulas that had no exposure to anything. For all we know it may be caused by some degenerative neuronal disease we've never even heard of.

DKS describes a set of symptoms and is not a disease in itself. Cold Blood explained that a few posts up. DKS is not a solution, it's just a description.
Of course, I actually agreed with CBs post above, that’s why I said usually, as that’s most often the cases we’ve observed, for example CBs sharing of his pesticide experience. That’s why I described DKS as a series of symptoms, and then listed a usual cause. To me it just made sense to list some known causes, because if it isn’t one of those there’s nothing we can know otherwise. I apologize if I made myself unclear. I did not mean to come off with the idea that DKS is always of chemical cause.
 

boina

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Of course, I actually agreed with CBs post above, that’s why I said usually, as that’s most often the cases we’ve observed, for example CBs sharing of his pesticide experience. That’s why I described DKS as a series of symptoms, and then listed a usual cause. To me it just made sense to list some known causes, because if it isn’t one of those there’s nothing we can know otherwise. I apologize if I made myself unclear. I did not mean to come off with the idea that DKS is always of chemical cause.
Ok, I removed the disagree :)
 

boina

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Thanks! I really appreciate you taking the time to discuss it, I should really be more clear. Might be New Years getting at me :p
And I apologize for just slapping a 'disagree' on it without explaining myself.
 

Lokee85

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MANY thanks to you both for your knowledge and empathy here. I’m going I try and bother her as little as possible and just see what happens.

Have any of you had to put a spider in the freezer before? I hate to even think of it, but as gingers condition worsens, my bf and I have been discussing possibilities for his T. She’s spent most her life with him, not me, and he’s pretty attached to her. I just don’t want to prolong suffering if that’s her ultimate end...

Also, should I worry now about my other Ts?? They’re in the same room with her.
How is your vagans doing? Better, I hope.
 
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