Is my B. vagans dying or dehydrated or just being a weird spider?

[maggiefiasco]

I've got a juvenile B. vagans who has been acting super weird lately. I have 6 tarantulas, and this little Vagans named "Ginger" is the only spider my boyfriend keeps at his house. The others all live with me as a big happy fang gang. He was very worried about Ginger, saying he wasn't sure if "she was gonna make it", so he brought her over to my house. I've been keeping her with the rest of my tarantulas for the past 3 or 4 days trying to watch her...

It's winter time so the house is a little cold, but we run a space heater in the T room to make sure theyre warm enough. This does dry out the air a lot, so I was immediately assuming she was dehydrated, since her legs were tucked in so tightly to her body it almost looked like a curl to me. Basically she's extremely sluggish, barely moves, when she does move its only when coaxed or to reposition herself inside her hide. Her legs look a little gray and when he brought her to me the legs being so tucked/slightly curled was, to me, that initial indication of perhaps dehydration?

She spent the night in ICU, but didn't look or act much different after coming out. Maybe a little less curly legged, but the curl was subtle in the first place so its hard to say... I made sure to place her water dish close to the hide for easy access and I refill it every day to ensure she's got plenty of water if she needs it.

I no longer think she's dehydrated, but I can't explain why else she keeps tucking her legs in really close to her body, why her legs look kinda gray and why she's not moving hardly at all, or it seems that she moves with a bit of difficulty. She's usually a very timid, shy, cute spider to begin with but even for her this is not normal. Last night it looked like she was trying to eat substrate... but she's refused food for a week now so I don't know if she is hungry or what? I don't think she's had any trauma or injuries, so I am kinda stumped here...

Does this just sound like pre-molt or something to you guys? Do I need to be concerned or just let her do her spider thing and know it will work itself out in time? I know most of the time that the advice will be: as long as she is not in immediate stress or harm, then just let her be... but I'd hate to think that I took no action when I should've, you know?

Anybody with experience with Brachypelmas have some input here? I have 7 tarantulas in total, but she is my only vagans. I also have a B. auratum but she's extremely lively, likes to stand/lay with her legs spread pretty wide, and the temperature in the room doesnt seem to bother her at all.. so whats up with my vagans?

Any input is appreciated guys and dolls, thank you so much!

 

[KezyGLA]

Do you have photos of T in question and the enclosure?

 

[athlete96]

Can you get photos of the T and her previous set up? How big is she? ETA: @KezyGLA you beat me to it

Sluggish and reclusive sound like pre-moult. The tucking of the legs.. if she's been moved I would say it is stress. My b. albo and b. bohemeii tend to just sit while in pre-moult. The leg curling seems odd to me though.

Also, I wouldn't do an ICU for her. While b. vagans do like it slightly more humid than other brachyphelma, such as b. hamorii, but they're not a tropical species. A super humid environment will stress her.

 

[Nightstalker47]

Definitely doesn't sound good, legs curling is always a bad sign. Share some pics of your spider and the enclosure. I hope the ICU you used had ample ventilation. If not it will only worsen things, especially with an arid species.

 

[cold blood]

Yep, would have actually been easer to just post a pic than to go into such description.

 

[Devin B]

Is it at all possible that your boyfriend may have accidentally used some cleaner near the enclosure?

If its definitelya juvie there's not a while lot that can go wrong with it other than dehydration, poisoning or fall injury.

 

[maggiefiasco]

Sorry I realize now that the photos wouldve been super useful, I was just posting this while I was still at work. Here are some pics now from just a few minutes ago, sry they look huge:

She does seem a bit better now, I dunno if the ICU really helped but she does seem a bit less curly... When we transferred her into ICU, she did try to walk a little on his hand and he said it felt like her legs were dragging themselves back in after she was trying to extend them like it was hard to do. She just stays very tucked up on herself she seems so tiny and scared... and seems really reluctant to do any walking or stretch out her legs at all, though she does seem able to turn herself around and come out of the hide a tiny bit. Her reluctance/inability to full extend her legs and walk about, paired with this very light digging/eating substrate business I have just never observed before, and I can see why he was concerned... I don't think it was a cleaning product or fall injury or anything like that. She's never climbed at all, just usually just hung out with the gnome.

My biggest guess is pre-molt, but he was weirded out by her behavior and now I kinda am too... I am not a super experienced keeper, though all of mine have survived at least one molt under my care. I know spiders can act weird, but is it normal to do this for an extended period of time? Is it something to worry about? I know they can get all stressed when you move them but she has been here with me since late on Monday night and there's been really little to no change. Not to mention she was like this for a few days before he even brought her here. Knowing my bf there's a 0% chance he sprayed any cleaning product nearby lol! He definitely isn't the cleaning type, so no worries there.

As far as ventilation/moisture goes, it's pretty dry in there, I only keep my Avics humid. I keep the room temperature really warm with my space heater so even if the house is cold, I still have it around 75-80F. And its a naturally arid climate, made even more dry by winter heating. I accidentally drip or spill a little in the sub when I refill her water most of the time, but that's all. She was in ICU for maybe 7 or 8 hours Monday Night when he brought her here to Tuesday AM, before going back in to this enclosure in the photo. Here she is several days later, just as you see her. The scale of the photo might be tricky, but that gnome toy in the back corner is only like 2 inches tall. If I had to guess, I'd say she's probably a 2" spider, but she wont spread out to really measure so thats just my guess.

IDK... Pre molt? Dehydrated? Just weird spood stuff?

 

[ccTroi]

Knowing my bf there's a 0% chance he sprayed any cleaning product nearby lol!

I only keep my Avics humid

If by “humid” you mean plenty of cross ventilation, water dish, and dry substrate, then same.

As far as ventilation/moisture goes, it's pretty dry in there

The substrate looks damp in picture 2?

p.s. i love the gnome

 

[maggiefiasco]

The substrate looks damp in picture 2?

Yup, that's the spot where the water dish is, the bottle cap is right there out of focus its so close to my face, lol I had to get SUPER close in to get this picture of her, my hands are just about inside the enclosure. You can see the sub higher up on the far right, near the edge of the hide is lighter in color and dry.

Its SUPER dry here (Utah in winter) so the water in the cap evaporates ridiculously fast. I refill it in the morning before I leave for work since the concern was possible dehydration, and like I said, I am a sloppy filler so there's a tiny bit of daily spillage. But otherwise I'm not misting or anything like that. Not actively trying to keep it damp in there, at any rate.

 

[maggiefiasco]

Update: Ginger has been acting super agitated being still mostly, but her movements are a little frenzied. She's flipped over on her back twice, prompting me to think she's about to molt, but then flipped herself upright again both times??

 

[Anoplogaster]

That’s a ton of vertical space for a Brachy

 

[Lokee85]

The behavior sounds like pre-molt to me, but your enclosure has WAY too much vertical space for that small of a spider. There is a great risk that your spider could fall (if they haven't already). With this and many other terrestrial Tarantulas, you want no more than 1.5-2× the diagonal leg span of the spider from top of substrate to top of enclosure.

Judging by the enclosure set up, there would be no way to fill it with more sub, so I would honestly suggest getting a new enclosure ASAP, one that is more suited in height to a terrestrial spider.

 

[maggiefiasco]

Holy crap you guys. The scale of the photos is misleading, I guess that’s my fault for giving no object of reference for scale... But this is a tiny enclosure. Yes I realize it may appear as though there’s a “ton of vertical space” but I assure you it’s no more than 2x her size from sub to top of enclosure.

Can anyone here actually make any sort of useful reply to my query on her strange behavior rather than joining the parade of people criticizing the freaking enclosure?

It’s 4 inches from the sub to the top and she’s a 2” spider. So it’s within the recommended height for safety for terrestrial Ts and all I’m asking here is if anyone has seen this type of behavior before? I’m not really experienced with Brachys, but this does not seem right.

If indicative of premolt, I will leave her alone and let her do her thing. But honestly at this point with her movement and behavior I am wondering if this is not a fungus or something else scary. She will no longer move normally. She’s either still completely, or when in motion she’s become panicked, flailing about, and a little aggressive. Still appears as though she’s attempting to eat the substrate?? I’ve never seen any of my other Ts act like this...

 

[Sarkhan42]

Update: Ginger has been acting super agitated being still mostly, but her movements are a little frenzied. She's flipped over on her back twice, prompting me to think she's about to molt, but then flipped herself upright again both times??

When you say frenzied, is she walking jittery and clumsily almost? As if she can’t really control her movements properly when she moves?

 

[maggiefiasco]

When you say frenzied, is she walking jittery and clumsily almost? As if she can’t really control her movements properly when she moves?

Yes. It’s kinda uncoordinated. Like she will be very still for a long while, then when she does move by herself or due to stimulus, it’s like she’s freaking out and flailing around almost?

She flipped over once while still inside her hide, then her claws seemed to get stuck on the bottom of the inside of the bark hide. She seemed to realize thsy she didn’t have enough overhead clearance, so then moved outside her hide to flip over once more in the soft dry substrate where she had more room.

She has since flipped back over upright and retreated to her hide again. She’s not made any more really purposeful, focused, coordinated efforts to move since. I’m growing more concerned as this seems to be deteriorating rather than improving.

 

[Lokee85]

Holy crap you guys. The scale of the photos is misleading, I guess that’s my fault for giving no object of reference for scale... But this is a tiny enclosure. Yes I realize it may appear as though there’s a “ton of vertical space” but I assure you it’s no more than 2x her size from sub to top of enclosure.

Can anyone here actually make any sort of useful reply to my query on her strange behavior rather than joining the parade of people criticizing the freaking enclosure?

It’s not that big, it’s within the recommended height for safety for terrestrial Ts, and all I’m asking here is if anyone has seen this type of behavior before?

If indicative of premolt, I will leave her alone and let her do her thing. But honestly at this point with her movement and behavior I am wondering if this is not a fungus or something else scary. I’ve never seen any of my other Ts act like this...

I can see the size of the spider vs the size of the hide, then the size of the hide vs the whole enclosure. I looked back and forth between the two pictures for scale judging by the size of the spider, not the enclosure itself, and it absolutely looks like there is at least 3-4× that spider's leg span in vertical height, but it is your spider, and I can only give my opinions based on the information provided. I am not trying to criticize anyone, simply trying to point out how the enclosure appears using the spider as scale.

As I said in my previous post, the behavior sounded like possible pre-molt to me, but it's also possible to have fallen and sustained internal injuries. The only thing to do, really, is wait it out.

 

[Sarkhan42]

Yes. It’s kinda uncoordinated. Like she will be very still for a long while, then when she does move by herself or due to stimulus, it’s like she’s freaking out and flailing around almost?

She flipped over once while still inside her hide, then her claws seemed to get stuck on the bottom of the inside of the bark hide. She seemed to realize thsy she didn’t have enough overhead clearance, so then moved outside her hide to flip over once more in the soft dry substrate where she had more room.

She has since flipped back over upright and retreated to her hide again. She’s not made any more really purposeful, focused, coordinated efforts to move since. I’m growing more concerned as this seems to be deteriorating rather than improving.

If you could get video that would be immensely helpful.

Sounds like your spider is experiencing DKS, essentially a series of degenerative neurological symptoms caused usually by exposure to some kind of chemical. Does the spiders original owner own any mammal pet, or use any aerosols/insect control agents anywhere around the house?

 

[Lokee85]

Yes. It’s kinda uncoordinated. Like she will be very still for a long while, then when she does move by herself or due to stimulus, it’s like she’s freaking out and flailing around almost?

She flipped over once while still inside her hide, then her claws seemed to get stuck on the bottom of the inside of the bark hide. She seemed to realize thsy she didn’t have enough overhead clearance, so then moved outside her hide to flip over once more in the soft dry substrate where she had more room.

She has since flipped back over upright and retreated to her hide again. She’s not made any more really purposeful, focused, coordinated efforts to move since. I’m growing more concerned as this seems to be deteriorating rather than improving.

Could be having trouble molting and the flailing movements are due to stress. I've heard spiders can have erratic movements with DKS, but I don't have personal experience with the syndrome. There is a useful sticky post you could check out to see if the behavior is like DKS.

 

[Lokee85]

http://arachnoboards.com/threads/dyskinetic-syndrome-dks.169557/

 

[maggiefiasco]

If you could get video that would be immensely helpful.

Sounds like your spider is experiencing DKS, essentially a series of degenerative neurological symptoms caused usually by exposure to some kind of chemical. Does the spiders original owner own any mammal pet, or use any aerosols/insect control agents anywhere around the house?

She came from a pet shop where we’ve bought several other Ts without incident. My boyfriend is definitely not the cleaning type, so I really doubt it’s a cleaning product, but I guess there’s always a possibility? Could like cologne or something sprayed within the same room have any effect? That’s all I can even think of and I’ve been wracking my brain for days while I try and keep watch over her and figure out wtf to do.

I’ll see if I can get some video, I’d have to kinda give her a poke or something with the tongs since I doubt she’ll move otherwise.