Infertile sac.

[SDCustom78]

For the first time i was going to attempt to breed P irminia's but...
Early this a.m. my 5 inch DLS mf laid her first infertile sac "had her since a sling, never been bred" and is currently holding it in her fangs with her legs curled around it which i will remove.
I have a mm irminia housed directly next to her and was just wondering, by doing this:
Did this induce the infertile sac to be laid i.e. through pheromones being in such close proximity to one another?
Should i have kept the enclosures further apart till introducing them?
Did this just happen because females just lay infertile sacs sometimes with no reasoning behind it "no one knows why outside of speculation"?
He's been mature for about 2 months just wandering the enclosure but typically he is staying on the side which is next to her enclosure. She hasn't molted in about 4 months and recently webbed up the enclosure much more than usual while refusing food for the last week so i was expecting a molt, not a sac. The "plan" was, for her to molt, harden up, then fatten her up for a month or so, and intro the two before the inevitable happens to him.
As well, what kind of time frame should i wait "if he lasts that long" to intro the two after she laid this sac? I dont want to stress her out too much so, would 1 molt cycle for her be ok to attempt breeding if he lives that long or should i look at getting another mm and wait a few molts cycles for her to strengthen up?
Any advice/experience is greatly appreciated, ty.

 

[Teal]

I am curious what folks might have to say about this.

I place all my breeding pairs next to each other in anticipation of pairings and have never had a phantom sac from any of the girls, so I am inclined to say it is just coincidence.

My first instinct would be to remove the phantom sac and then pair her as soon as possible. What has her molt schedule been like? I do think it is worth pairing them even with the possibility of her molting out.

 

[SDCustom78]

@Teal Since a sling @ 1.25 inches 12/7/2017, 2/18/2018, 4/7/2018 "confirmed female", 6/18/2018, 9/6/2018, and now yet to molt.

 

[Greasylake]

My first instinct would be to remove the phantom sac and then pair her as soon as possible

I honestly wouldn't do this. Making a sack, even an infertile one, takes a lot of resources from the female. I would take the sack and make sure she was fed well, had water and probably wait for a molt before trying to pair them to get another sack. You wouldn't want the female to be short on resources and then get a sack that's small or something happens with the eggs.

 

[cold blood]

Well irminia can double clutch, only because of this would I think to possibly introduce the male. Honestly though, I would just hold off pairing until she molts again....ideally she should have been paired already and you would have a good sac. But if you aren't going to introduce the MM, just leave the sac, often they eat it, which is a great way for them to recover what was lost dropping the sac.

I agree with teal though, phantom sacs are just random....I also keep MMs next to perspective females, although I almost never notice either paying attention to one another....the only phantom sacs I have had occurred when no MM was present and always with young, newly matured females.

 

[Teal]

View attachment 299115 View attachment 299116 @Teal Since a sling @ 1.25 inches 12/7/2017, 2/18/2018, 4/7/2018 "confirmed female", 6/18/2018, 9/6/2018, and now yet to molt.

Sounds like the September molt was her maturation molt then... so who knows how long she'll go between now.

I honestly wouldn't do this. Making a sack, even an infertile one, takes a lot of resources from the female. I would take the sack and make sure she was fed well, had water and probably wait for a molt before trying to pair them to get another sack. You wouldn't want the female to be short on resources and then get a sack that's small or something happens with the eggs.

Sorry, I should have fully typed out my thoughts... by "as soon as possible" I didn't mean right away after removing the phantom sac, I meant once she had been well prepped for a pairing (as you said, having been well fed and hydrated) rather than waiting it out for a molt and the male possibly expiring. You're absolutely right that producing a sac, even a phantom sac, is very taxing on the female and she should be allowed to recover before being paired!

 

[SDCustom78]

@cold blood obviously she wasn't eating for a week before hand "why i thought pre molt" so what are the chances of her eating this if i leave it in there? Is there a time frame i should wait "generally"before going in there and taking it if she doesnt eat it or abandon it? Best case scenario she does eat it, and then molts, and ill try intro'ing the two of them when she hardens up and is well fed. Any possibility of her molting while having this sac and just taking it then as well because she is due to do so?

 

[cold blood]

Is there a time frame i should wait "generally"before going in there and taking it if she doesnt eat it or abandon it?

No timeframe...take it if she abandons it. Otherwise no harm in letting her get some time being a mom. Generally they eat it within a couple weeks....if shes still holding it in 3 weeks or so, then you can take it and see whats inside.

Any possibility of her molting while having this sac

None.

she is due to do so

As teal pointed out, her last molt was almost certainly her maturing molt....so her molt times will increase significantly from the last molts....its likely not going to molt until summer.....maybe even late summer.

 

[SDCustom78]

Thank you to @Teal, @cold blood and @Greasylake for the informative info, it doesn't go unappreciated. Being new to wanting to breed for the first time, this situation threw me a curve ball and its nice to know folks are here to lend a helping hand when needed with good information. Much appreciated.