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ID, please

Discussion in 'Myriapods' started by 西行寺 幽々子, May 1, 2009.

  1. 西行寺 幽々子

    西行寺 幽々子 Arachnopeon

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    this species i think it is Scolopendra subspinipes subspinipes before, but now i think i make a mistake

    the last leg completely different from Sc. sub. subspinipes, please tell me what is it, Scolopendra morsitans or Scolopendra cingulata or others?

    from Vietnam, but i think the distribution should more extensive

    so far i found the biggest size is 15CM, but can't sure it is max size
    [​IMG]



    [​IMG]
    Stomatal is triangle, not circle



    [​IMG]
    this is last leg, shorter and thicker than subspinipes


    [​IMG]
    moult

    if anyone want to more detail pic, please tell me , i will take some new photos

    thanks
     
  2. Draiman

    Draiman Arachnoking

    It looks more like Sc. alternans to me.
     
  3. Androctonus_bic

    Androctonus_bic Arachnoprince Old Timer

    This is an alternans

    [​IMG]

    And the terminal legs are not similars, and also their not live in Vietnam.

    S. cingulata not live in Vietnam

    I think it is male S. morsitans.

    But wait for experts.

    Cheers
    Carles
     
  4. peterbourbon

    peterbourbon Arachnolord

    Hi,

    S. alternans does not occur in Vietnam if the speciman on the pic is really caught in Vietnam.

    Furthermore: If it's S. morsitans, then it's surely no male.

    I suppose it's Scolopendra subspinipes cingulatoides.

    Regards,
    Turgut
     
  5. Androctonus_bic

    Androctonus_bic Arachnoprince Old Timer

    Wow!
    Is the first time that I've seen this ssp.

    Dificult to ID! Thanks Turgut!

    Cheers
    Carles
     
  6. peterbourbon

    peterbourbon Arachnolord

    Hey,

    i didn't say i'm sure. ;)
    But the terminal legs and distribution points toward this subspecies.

    I have the description in original German language here.
    Here is the translation (then maybe the owner can look it up for himself ;)):

    Translation from
    Attems C. (1938) "Die von Dr. C. Dawydoff in französisch Indochina gesammelten Myriopoden":
    Prefemur of terminal legs less than twice as long as thick, relation of length to width: 5.5 : 3.2. dehaani found in the same location features a relation of 8 : 2.5. Terminal legs with 2 ventral, 2 medial and 4 dorso-medial spines, the prefemoral process is mostly bigger than the other spines. Coxopleural process with 3 spines. The sternites lack paramedian sulci (like some specimen of dehaani). The tergites feature more or less clearly noticable paramedian sulci. Location: Hagiang (Haut Tonkin); Thakek (Laos).

    This variation combines somehow the taxonomical characters of subspinipes and cingulata. The average length and width of terminal legs' prefemur resembles cingulata, but it differs from cingulata by lacking paramedian sulci on sternites that are clearly noticable in cingulata. Furthermore the spines on terminal legs' prefemur are much stronger/bigger than in cingulata (where those spines appear tiny). The coxopleural process is longer than cingulata's process. In all those features this species resembles subspinipes and this is also affirmed by geographical distribution. "Subspinipes" is the most common species in Asia and "cingulata" only occurs in mediterranean area and bordering countries.


    Chilobase points out following distribution area: Vietnam: Hagiang, Haut Tonkin. Laos: Thakek

    Regards,
    Turgut
     
  7. 西行寺 幽々子

    西行寺 幽々子 Arachnopeon

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    peterbourbon ,thank you very much for your carefully reply

    it is really caught in Vietnam, so far, i have seen 5 pedes from a vietnamese, and he give me two to keep, the 5 pedes looks have all the same features of terminal legs , if it is Sc. morsitans, the 5 pedes are the same sex, that is small probability

    Scolopendra subspinipes cingulatoides, this is really a new name to me, i first seen it

    and thanks for you give me the literature too
     
  8. peterbourbon

    peterbourbon Arachnolord

    Hey,

    you're welcome. :)
    Thanks for sharing the pics.

    I added a sketch with a comparison of ventral side (underside) of terminal legs (left: dehaani, right: cingulatoides):

    [​IMG]

    I think you should look on the underside of the terminal legs. That could make some things clearer.

    (Nevertheless i think subspinipes-species needs revision, but for now S.s. cingulatoides still seems to be a valid subspecies).

    Regards,
    Turgut
     
  9. 西行寺 幽々子

    西行寺 幽々子 Arachnopeon

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    ok, i just take some new photos about the underside of terminal legs, and i have mark the important stuck by red round

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    it looks a Sc.sub.cingulatoides ,right?

    by the way, i found this colour looks more good when it on a dark background
    [​IMG]:)
     
  10. peterbourbon

    peterbourbon Arachnolord

    Hey,

    if you are sure it's caught (not only sold) in Vietnam, then i'd personally go for S. subspinipes cingulatoides.

    Congrats! :)


    EDIT: Wait! I see i have translated one section wrong: i said "2 medial and 4 dorso-medial spines", but it must be "medial and dorso-medial together 4 spines"...and exactly those 4 spines we can see in your first pic. So i'm more confident in IDing it as S.s. cingulatoides. ;)


    Regards,
    Turgut
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2009
  11. 西行寺 幽々子

    西行寺 幽々子 Arachnopeon

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    yes, it be caught in Vietnam , a vietnamese catch them in north Vietnam, and give me two for present, i have kept them about 9 months

    thanks for your help
     
  12. 西行寺 幽々子

    西行寺 幽々子 Arachnopeon

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    in the reply, i learn many about S. subspinipes cingulatoides, specifically is the medial and dorso-medial together 4 spines, i just found i have another interesting example

    this pede i have keep it a long time, about 1 year or more long, i always
    call it dehanni before, so you can see the pic,looks like between dehanni"orange leg" and "Chinese Giants", but it have a diffrerent terminal legs too
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    so , in these pic, the stuck on the terminal legs is different from dehanni too, and i have mark the stucks by blue round, it looks like S. subspinipes cingulatoides

    this pede live in Burma, Vietnam , and Yunnan(Southwest
    of China), mine from Burma, and it very big, most can grow longer than 20CM,mine is 19CM now

    is it another S. subspinipes cingulatoides? and is S. sub.cingulatoides very common in Aisa too like dehanni or S.sub.subspinipes?

    this is a moult pic [​IMG] you can see the colour is different from dehanni, but very like S.sub.subspinipes "Philippines"
     
  13. peterbourbon

    peterbourbon Arachnolord

    Hey,

    distinguishing dehaani from other subspinipes-subspecies is very easy, it doesn't have spines at all on the underside of the terminal legs, so it would lack those two.

    It's a little bit trickier to distiniguish the nominate (S.s. subspinipes) from cingulatoides only by spines, cause both can have two spines on the underside.

    On the one hand my guess is based on the collecting site (Vietnam) and on the other hand it's the subspinipes-untypical thickness of terminal legs.
    I'm not sure S.s.cingulatoides is a widespread species, cause it's officially only stated for Vietnam and Laos (which doesn't mean anything, of course).

    So...i would not exclude Burma from cingulatoides-distribution, cause if you say your pedes were collected from Northern Vietnam, cingulatoides may be distributed in the "northern stripe" of Burma, Laos and Vietnam. But i don't know for sure.

    Regards,
    Turgut
     
  14. 西行寺 幽々子

    西行寺 幽々子 Arachnopeon

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    so if you sure it is not a dehanni, what name we temporarily call it is the better? Sc.sub.subspinipes?

    i feel the stucks on its terminal legs like S. subspinipes cingulatoides, it have seven stucks on each terminal legs , medial have 5, and underside have 2( please see the pic carefully)
     
  15. peterbourbon

    peterbourbon Arachnolord

    Hi,

    i have an idea: You should check if it has a tarsal spine on 20th legpairs - if not, it's maybe a darker form of S. multidens. (It's not easy to check, but i would give it a try).

    Maybe S. s. cingulatoides must be synonymized with S. multidens, because Attems does not give much information about that subspecies (i find a lot of resembling taxonomical features, so i'm unsure how to distinguish S.s.cingulatoides from S. multidens clearly - it's only the additional location info "Vietnam" that points more towards S.s.cingulatoides).

    The S. multidens in trade have thicker terminal legs compared to S. subspinipes, but they all have a red headplate and a dark-green / brown body (even mentioned in the species description).

    For the second species: Please check the tarsal spines on 20th legpairs, maybe that helps to go on.

    Regards
    Turgut
     
  16. 西行寺 幽々子

    西行寺 幽々子 Arachnopeon

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    ok, i can do it now, but i can't understand "the tarsal spines on 20th legpairs" very cleanly(sorry for my bad English...)
    can you mark it in my first or second pic? let me know where i need to take photos, if you can, draw a draft is ok too, thanks

    and there is another colourful of the pede, it have all the same features with mine, just colour different, but i have no chance to get one, the pic is not mine
    [​IMG]

    by the way, my multidens dead in last Summer, and i not get a new one, so i can't show a macro photos of multidens now, sorry for it
     
  17. peterbourbon

    peterbourbon Arachnolord

    Hey,

    you have to take closer look at the pair of legs before terminal legs (it's important: only the legs on segment 20 are important). Here is a sketch where you can find the tarsal spine on the leg (i don't mean the two claw spines):

    [​IMG]


    I think you must take a macro photo from a side angle to see it - not easy, cause it's small (if the centipede features it).

    Regards
    Turgut
     
  18. 西行寺 幽々子

    西行寺 幽々子 Arachnopeon

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    well, there are some new photo, i don't sure it is you want

    really very hard, i think i have do my best, i can't take more chearly pic...

    it seems not have it , this is the 20th leg
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    by the way, the 19th leg seems have a tarsal spine if it is
    this is the 19th leg
    [​IMG]

    so what do you think of ?
     
  19. peterbourbon

    peterbourbon Arachnolord

    Hey,

    yes, i think it lacks the tarsal spine on 20th leg - and you can see this tarsal spine on 19th legs, exactly. Nice macro pics!

    The macro pictures are taken from the first centipede that seemed to be cingulatoides or another one?

    Refering to the subspinipes-related species i only know Scolopendra multidens and Scolopendra subspinipes japonica
    that lack the tarsal spines on 20th legpair. It is not clear if Scolopendra subspinipes cingulatoides lacks it or not, because Attems does not say anything about that taxonomical feature.

    multidens and s. japonica only differ in color (multidens: noticable red head plate differs from green/brown colored body, s. japonica: headplate same color, mostly greenish like the whole body), paramedian sulci on sternites (underside of the centipede you may notice two furrows on each segment...mutidens: they are faintly noticable and don't reach the back margin of each segment, s. japonica: sharp and good noticable furrows) and paramedian sulci on tergites (same furrows, but from above...multidens: they begin from second segment, s. japonica: they begin from 3rd segment...and don't count the headplate).

    Sounds complicated. ;)

    Regards
    Turgut
     
  20. 西行寺 幽々子

    西行寺 幽々子 Arachnopeon

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    all the pic from the second pede(the red one), the first one i haven't seen it about this features, so what will i do? go on to take the same part photo of the first pede?

    and in your word, you think the second is a multidens, right? but so far still don't know the first one have the tarsal spine or not, if the first one really a cingulatoides and not have the features, that mean cingulatoides not have the tarsal spine on 20th leg too, right?

    ok , tell me how to do now? if you need me take more photo that need wait sometime, the four pic i just take have cost about 1 hour and i think i need to the battery charge now