LV-426
Arachnobaron
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- Sep 26, 2010
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- 497
I have a problem with the people who froze/ killed a hybrid they owned just because it was a hybrid offspring. Its not the hybrid's fault it was born.
Hybrid Poll
- Thread starter charm271
- Start date
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2010
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- 1,309
@SpakR,
Where did you buy your 4 Ts? Was it from a scientist/university? Certainly couldn't have been from a "layman" because you don't condone captive breeding. Also, were they bred for conservation or your pleasure? Either this is the case or you've contradicted yourself.
If not for captive breeding or these "laymen", you wouldn't have your 4 Ts nor would this hobby exist.
Where did you buy your 4 Ts? Was it from a scientist/university? Certainly couldn't have been from a "layman" because you don't condone captive breeding. Also, were they bred for conservation or your pleasure? Either this is the case or you've contradicted yourself.
If not for captive breeding or these "laymen", you wouldn't have your 4 Ts nor would this hobby exist.
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- Joined
- Jan 17, 2011
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- 2,461
great point
When I wrote the previous post I knew this question was going to come up. While I myself did not purchase the T's in question, but were a gift from my wife ( I will explain later) I understand I would be called a hypocrite and the fact that I continue to keep them may just be the case. So to answer your questions directly:
1) Where did you buy your 4 Ts? My wife purchased them for me as a gift. Understand I used to be in the hobby 8+ years ago and had 12 T's in my care (of which I did purchase). I joined the military and had to give away my T's, snakes, and scorpions due to my service. I have since rejoined the civilian life for 2 some odd years and my wife purchased 2 of my favorites King Baboon, and B.Smithi. She did not purchase a T. Blondi due to cost, but a LP, and for my one and only arboreal a H.Mac. If I had a choice in the matter I probably wouldn't of picked a H.Mac, but that is of no importance. The reason for this is due to my initial sacrifice, which it was, when I joined the service. Since my time in the military I have changed my position regarding the exotic pet trade. Which basically is what I wrote in the previous post. If I am a hypocrite, than i am. I will not go into anymore personal detail or explanation.
2) Was it from a scientist/university? I will almost assuredly say no.
3) Also, we're they bred for conservation or your pleasure? I would say pleasure, which I make clear in my previous post.
So now, I've been clear on my position. This position goes hand in hand with my second question posed in the post "My second question is how can we justify our hobby in regards to possession, while at the same time being against the WC trade? Knowing that they go hand in hand." I know the T's in the hobby were originally WC and eventually through "laymen" made into CB. Now this issue goes hand in hand with my first point, that due to greed, or even just novelty, it is inevitable that hybridization will occur when breeding CB T's. My first question posed was how to prevent it. I think maybe we should have a registry of parentage similar to purebred cats or dogs "papers" which shows a line of parentage (this is my feeble attempt to try to resolve the issue). Otherwise we cannot for sure say that we are dealing with "pure" T species. It is inevitable, that hybrids will be sold as actual "pure" species since there isn't any clear distinguishable documents to prove this. In addition, hybrids if the reproduce, could take up to the 6-10 generation before this is realized. By then it will be too late to fix, as hundreds if not thousands of slings would have been released for sale or trade.
I know that my opinion on the matter will inflame many hobbyist, but it is just that my opinion. I don't think any CB T's should ever be released in the wild (including their offspring). The only condition is if there is a guarantee or certainty the offspring were from 2 WC T's and released in its natural setting.
Since I have returned into the hobby, I have noticed how drastic things have changed. Some for good and some for the worst. I have many opinions that would inflame a lot of hobbyist (handling, how many in one persons possession, care, etc). You can get upset about my opinions, but it won't change them. Call me closed minded, but if you truly care about the hobby and the T's in your care, then you have to admit something needs to change. Otherwise we will become like the reptile trade and create monstrosities that don't even resemble actual WC specimens, without some control or regulation. We can say I trust this person, or that person. For some this is enough in regards to credibility, but for people like myself, who dont actually know breeders, trust can be misleading.
1) Where did you buy your 4 Ts? My wife purchased them for me as a gift. Understand I used to be in the hobby 8+ years ago and had 12 T's in my care (of which I did purchase). I joined the military and had to give away my T's, snakes, and scorpions due to my service. I have since rejoined the civilian life for 2 some odd years and my wife purchased 2 of my favorites King Baboon, and B.Smithi. She did not purchase a T. Blondi due to cost, but a LP, and for my one and only arboreal a H.Mac. If I had a choice in the matter I probably wouldn't of picked a H.Mac, but that is of no importance. The reason for this is due to my initial sacrifice, which it was, when I joined the service. Since my time in the military I have changed my position regarding the exotic pet trade. Which basically is what I wrote in the previous post. If I am a hypocrite, than i am. I will not go into anymore personal detail or explanation.
2) Was it from a scientist/university? I will almost assuredly say no.
3) Also, we're they bred for conservation or your pleasure? I would say pleasure, which I make clear in my previous post.
So now, I've been clear on my position. This position goes hand in hand with my second question posed in the post "My second question is how can we justify our hobby in regards to possession, while at the same time being against the WC trade? Knowing that they go hand in hand." I know the T's in the hobby were originally WC and eventually through "laymen" made into CB. Now this issue goes hand in hand with my first point, that due to greed, or even just novelty, it is inevitable that hybridization will occur when breeding CB T's. My first question posed was how to prevent it. I think maybe we should have a registry of parentage similar to purebred cats or dogs "papers" which shows a line of parentage (this is my feeble attempt to try to resolve the issue). Otherwise we cannot for sure say that we are dealing with "pure" T species. It is inevitable, that hybrids will be sold as actual "pure" species since there isn't any clear distinguishable documents to prove this. In addition, hybrids if the reproduce, could take up to the 6-10 generation before this is realized. By then it will be too late to fix, as hundreds if not thousands of slings would have been released for sale or trade.
I know that my opinion on the matter will inflame many hobbyist, but it is just that my opinion. I don't think any CB T's should ever be released in the wild (including their offspring). The only condition is if there is a guarantee or certainty the offspring were from 2 WC T's and released in its natural setting.
Since I have returned into the hobby, I have noticed how drastic things have changed. Some for good and some for the worst. I have many opinions that would inflame a lot of hobbyist (handling, how many in one persons possession, care, etc). You can get upset about my opinions, but it won't change them. Call me closed minded, but if you truly care about the hobby and the T's in your care, then you have to admit something needs to change. Otherwise we will become like the reptile trade and create monstrosities that don't even resemble actual WC specimens, without some control or regulation. We can say I trust this person, or that person. For some this is enough in regards to credibility, but for people like myself, who dont actually know breeders, trust can be misleading.
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- Joined
- Sep 20, 2009
- Messages
- 1,351
You're opinions don't "inflame" me. They're just irrational, lack reasoning, or evidence. Why be inflamed by that? It's simply not worth my (or anyone's) time.
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2005
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- 8,325
nothing from the hobby should ever, EVER be released back into nature. scientists have protocols to hopefully reduce the risks of such endeavors down to negligible levels but hobbyists most certainly do not
@shd, i tried my best to think of some kind of refutation for what you said in response to me... but i reckon you are generally correct. so, aim lower... what about at least being able to prevent some possible hybrid pairings? it seems to me a partial solution is better than no solution... so, get as many species definitions as possible and "certify" hobby specimens that can pass muster. at least some noise will be canceled in the signal, i hope? at least some obvious mistaken pairings could be avoided then
@shd, i tried my best to think of some kind of refutation for what you said in response to me... but i reckon you are generally correct. so, aim lower... what about at least being able to prevent some possible hybrid pairings? it seems to me a partial solution is better than no solution... so, get as many species definitions as possible and "certify" hobby specimens that can pass muster. at least some noise will be canceled in the signal, i hope? at least some obvious mistaken pairings could be avoided then
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2002
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- 4,341
Amen to that. Supportive breeding and what we do are two very different matters. The hobby could definitely contribute our knowledge to help out wild populations .. give supporting breeding efforts a head start. Our specimens, though, are probelmatic to say the least.
Teaching first principles would be a big benefit. Show that colouration means so very little and then what to look for instead. I was recently asked to confirm the ID of a spcies for which I had no relevent publications. I couldn't .. but I did go through a quick checklist of features to look at to at least determine whether the specimens that came from different routes within the pet trade were likely even the same species. Bringing what has been the exclusive territory of the advanced hobbyist a little more into general useage would be a very good thing and there are definitely some hot spots where allowing people to differentiate the differences would be of benefit. I would suggest video with accompanying high-res images. I'm becomming increasingly convinced that if you want to teach people things then video is the way to go .. but at around 2MP, HD video just doesn't have the resolution needed to put forward the details.
Cheers,
Dave
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2006
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- 1,598
Filthy mudbloodI'm sure glad my family didn't feel the same. I'm as muddied up as a... um, well a mudder. Pure breed breeding is racist
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- Dec 13, 2005
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- 1,323
If an hybrid looks close enought to either parent species to be mistakenly sold as such, well that underlines the global uselessness of it all. The danger is that someone breeds an hybrid thinking it's a pure specimen and starts spreading them.
If hybridation could yield something very unique, special, beautiful and impossible to mix with parents species, I'd be in favor...but that's not the case!
If hybridation could yield something very unique, special, beautiful and impossible to mix with parents species, I'd be in favor...but that's not the case!