Help!! T. blondi with fungus amongus!!!

[Kris-wIth-a-K]

hmm

wouldnt the alchohol harm the T?

 

[jen650s]

I'll second the change all the tanks. I had a mold problem that looked identical to the one in your A. geniculata container this past fall. I had done a mass substrate change as part of a mass housing change to larger enclosures for about 25 of my Ts. I used a brick of peat like you get at a housing center. Every enclosure I changed had this mold. In the dry tanks I picked the mold off the top and when it didn't recur I forgot about it:wall: :wall: . In the moist tanks I did a complete change, cleaned everything with a mild bleach solution and replaced with a different brand of peat (the rest of the brick went in the garden) mixed with coir.

Long story short, the mold had infected the Ts in every enclosure I didn't completely, change 6 of them, and even though the mold never came back in the tank the Ts became covered with it about 3-4 weeks later and died within 2-3 days of the first mold sighting:8o . They never curled or even looked dead other than being very fuzzy with mold and I never would have suspected that mold could have thrived in such dry conditions.

Good Luck!

 

[Widowman10]

Long story short, the mold had infected the Ts in every enclosure I didn't completely, change 6 of them, and even though the mold never came back in the tank the Ts became covered with it about 3-4 weeks later and died within 2-3 days of the first mold sighting:8o . They never curled or even looked dead other than being very fuzzy with mold and I never would have suspected that mold could have thrived in such dry conditions.

Good Luck!

ha, good luck after that story?! i don't think so! to be honest, i never knew that mold could be that bad . that is crazy how it spreads and how it affects the T's... geez...

 

[jmb]

Overall, your methods appear sound...

The antibiotic was not for the fungus, it did not exist at the time of the original treatment. The antibiotic does seem to have stopped the spread of the original symptoms.

Likely the bacterial/other infection was the primary, which served to help reduce immune response to the point where a (hopefully opportunistic) fungus was able to, well, be opportunistic, obviously.

But who knows if that is actually the case. We never identified what the actual cause of the original discoloration/skin damage.

Provided the subject survives, any darkening seen is likely to remain (at the very least until the next molt). Now, as for the cascading reaction which ends up at "black spot(s)" on invertebrates due to fungal pathogens/infections, here's a puzzler for you (and most the rest of us, as well): as some fungi are known for a fact to induce the host to produce melanin to protect against both fungicidal UV-radiation as well as (possibly) preventing damage via hydroxyl radical formation by deactivation of Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2) via an oxidation reaction of Fe(II) to Fe(III), the darkening/melanization *COULD* be due to that, just as easily as it *COULD* be due to the immune system of the invertebrate itself, as one of their immediate defenses is melanin-encapsulation of invading pathogens, with the free-radical byproducts of the process (presumably) assisting in the destruction of the invader (do a google search on Prophenoloxidase conversion into active phenoloxidase - that should bring up plenty of info, and/or a google search on "Defensins", which are by no means the sole purview of insects -- arachnids have similar compounds, some highly specialized and species/genus-specific, like Androctonine). If you have access to a school library, odds are you *should* be able to find plenty of scientific documentation on the above.

That said, in brief, the darkening is unlikely to disappear; even if entirely "cured" of what ails them, they are not unlikely to have this for a good period of time, sorry.

She is still strong but not fast and so far has no interest in crickets, earthworms or pinkies.

IME, those inverts with serious (presumably systemic) fungal infections are disinclined to take food (no appetite generally means sick animal); I have had some success in my own experimental treatments of very mycotically infected scorpions where ones that declined to eat prior to treatment actually did begin eating again (with the accompanying statistically better prognosis)...But again, all of this is still in a fairly early research stage, so I can't tell you what will work out until the Fat Lady Sings [tm].

This period of acclimation to captivity is so dangerous for any wild caught animal. That is why the pet store I work for practices quarantine procedures and tends to the stress and deparasitation before making animals available for sale.:clap:

That is very good news to me, as I've already made my views quite apparent regarding those who clearly couldn't give a tinker's cuss about what condition their invertebrates are in, with the amount of money collected for them being the sole consideration, with the care, keeping of them etcetera either back-burnered in comparison, if not neglected entirely.

Well, I hate the idea of drying out a freshly WC blondi, but that makes too much sense not to.

While I am NOT -- by any stretch -- an expert on Tarantulas (I'm the first to admit that), I *can* say that, logical sounding as that may be, it is possibly still the wrong thing to do -- note I say 'possibly' -- as my own experiments have demonstrated that taking measures to change the environment to make things less hospitable for the fungal pathogen(s) in question, if done at the expense of environmentally stressing the specimen itself, generally results in a lowered immune response, which in turn leads to the invader gaining the upper hand and culminating in the death of the specimen in question. Just my $0.02 on the matter.

I want to treat the fungus, but I'm not sure what is effective and safe for her.

You're not the only one engaged in a search for a silver bullet although (comments about the usefulness of parabens aside) I have to say I'm not entirely convinced that there is any one single "perfect cure", per se: I am currently of the informed and reasoned opinion that the _possibility_ of one exists, although I suspect it more likely that things will culminate for me in finding a select number of different compounds each of which will be a different item in the arsenal, effective against general groups/families (e.g., treatment X for Beauveria spp., treatment Y+Z for Hypocreales, etcetera).

Now that it is daytime, I am going to ask my vet. He (they actually, Drs. Beasley and Nolan) is a very accomplished and recognized exotic pet vet

Again, I'm glad we spoke whilst I was in the middle of penning this (longwinded) reply, as they'll be added to the list of those I have yet to speak with in my quest for further information, the ultimate goal being to properly arm all of us with something which will work in situations like these.

there is so little that is known about tarantula medicine.

No argument there: Entomology itself is what I would tend to call a 'rarefied' profession -- not that being a DVM itself isn't rarefied as well, just the former even more so; how much more rarefied, then, is Arachnology in particular -- and Arachnid or at least Arthropod Pathology, beyond that....?

Combine that with the also highly specialized and sadly rarefied field of Mycology, and then start looking for the few points where they intersect (e.g., Docs of both Entomology *and* Mycology). Considering the number of people on the planet who can differentiate certain common (fusarium/penicillium) down to the species level can be counted in a few digits, or so I've been told, the question is not "Does someone have answers?" -- we do, collectively speaking, HAVE the answers; at least, different people/organizations have PARTS of the answer -- of, this, I'm absolutely certain.

I'm equally certain that, due to a lack of the appropriate crossover between specialists, nobody has "found all the parts" and simply put it together. This is my goal, and I'm definitely moving towards it with ever-increasing rapidity. I don't know if it'll be fast enough to save your T. blondi, though

I will let you guys know if the vet recommends a treatment that no one here has thought of yet.

Please do; referring back to what I said regarding topical treatments being ineffective against FP's once they've made it into the haemolymph, I suspect it will have to be something given internally, as discussed.

Best of luck, and I'm sure we'll be in touch.


~JMB

 

[jmb]

Neither are particularly toxic to inverts in low concentrations

What about tea tree oil and/or grapefruit seed extract? Both have anti-fungal and anti-bacterial properties? Are they dangerous to Ts?

...Though I cannot say that either could or would be particularly efficacious, either -- at least not once there is cuticle penetration by the fungus, as after that, no topical treatments appear to have any significant effect.

Methylene Blue, Gentian Violent, the Parabens (e.g., methylparaben is one of the more commonly used, effective and safe compounds in use even today, being a preservative, anti-microbial to a degree (weak against gram-negatives) and definitely a proven fungicide/inhibitor) -- all of these are viable treatments, given that the fungus HAS NOT YET penetrated the cuticle: ALL entomogenous fungi are naturally equipped to colonize/infect/penetrate, as they naturally feed on arthropods -- which means that topical treatment(s) can ONLY work if you treat *immediately*. Ideally before there are any visible signs. Nice, eh?

And for those interested in Gentian violet, careful with that Axe, Eugene...Nasty stuff that (at least compared to the other things named herein).


~JMB

 

[JayzunBoget]

Wow, that was amazing, jmb

I look forward with great anticipation to taking this conversation as far as you are interested in taking it. In the short time I was able to talk to you on the phone and in your posts you have proved to be quite an amazing person, particularly to come across at this time. I thank you greatly for all of the time and attention that you have turned upon poor Gaia's (the T. blondi) problem.
However, to cut closer to the chase and direst my immediate actions, you mentioned...

I suspect it more likely that things will culminate for me in finding a select number of different compounds each of which will be a different item in the arsenal, effective against general groups/families (e.g., treatment X for Beauveria spp., treatment Y+Z for Hypocreales, etcetera).

Do you have anything not particularly species specific that you would recommend that I start until I can get a culture to my vet on Monday? You also mentioned cheap ways to get that culture started, could you tell me more about that?

ALL entomogenous fungi are naturally equipped to colonize/infect/penetrate, as they naturally feed on arthropods -- which means that topical treatment(s) can ONLY work if you treat *immediately*. Ideally before there are any visible signs. Nice, eh?

I have been under the impression that the larger the fungus colony, the stronger and more resilient the colony and for that reason, every bit you beat back the fungus, the less strong and resilient it was. Is this inaccurate?
I have soooo much that I want to ask you, but necessity demands I get back to sterilizing my tarantula housing/equipment.
Thank you and everyone else who had advice and well wishes.
Viva Gaia !!!!

p.s. I will not be drying her tank out because I felt (after considering various recommendations) that it was better to offer her the most appropriate conditions for her best immune response.
I also came across a similar post where someone named Betty misted her blondi and that started an outbreak of mold that sounded much like mine. I even just began spraying down the tank recently. She dried out the abdomen w/ baby powder and it seemed to work for her, but I would be chicken. Baby powder is VERY fine and could IMO find it's way into the booklung with possibly deadly effects. Yikes!!

 

[GOMER113]

Just curious...are you keeping your seemani moist?

The peat felt somewhat moist as I was pulling it out of the bag each time I used it. The first time, it took a couple of weeks, I think, to grow mold/fungus/whatever it is. I did mist once or twice. When I threw that stuff away and used the same brand, but different bag of peat, it only took a couple of days to appear. No misting the second time.

Come to think of it, I also have some small condiment cups that I'm keeping some slings in and two of the four also had this stuff appear.

 

[JayzunBoget]

Topical Iodine hopefully won't hurt...

because, for lack of any other immediate action other than seperating and sanitizing cages, that's all I could think of that sounded safe. It won't have any affect if the infection is systemic, as we suppose it is, but we don't really know that. So I figure why take the risk that the infection is not yet systemic and, not having removed the fungus, allowing it to go systemic.
I've got her in a dim, naturally lit unused bathroom on the second floor and all of the rest of my Ts are in the basement.
I was up til 5:30 in the morning with my devoted wife sanitizing and changing around all of my Ts last night.
She still has lots of fight to her. She is not displaying like an OBT or King Baboon, but she stridulates like a siren and flicks hairs that she no longer has.
Again, thanks for the well wishing and advice.
And, Jason, if you have any internal treatment ideas like you where alluding to ealier, I would love to hear about them.:worship: :worship: :worship:
Viva Gaia!!!

 

[jmb]

Quick thoughts...

If it is indeed a fungus, could one not apply anti-fungal cream to the body?

Yes, and there's no reason *not* to use an external fungicide -- provided one uses one non-toxic to inverts, it will (at the very least) do no harm, and will stymie the spread, perhaps a bit.

The issue is that once it makes it to the haemolymph, you can take the fork out of their back -- they are *done*

The one thing the countless number of professionals in the field I've spoken with just in the last month or so is that once Systemic symptoms are present, no amount of topical applications will help: only the administration of an internal fungicide will help...Provided it is safe for use in inverts (which most are not -- at least, not at a dosage sufficient to damage the fungus, the latter being notoriously difficult to eradicate).

Antibiotics aren't going to cure a fungus.

Quite right -- but they can rule things out.

Of the main groups of Invertebrate Pathogens, you have:

-Viruses
-Bacteria
-Fungi
-Protozoa
-Nematodes

I think, all things considered, that in this instance we can disregard the last two. As viral infections for inverts are surprisingly rare, given their obligate pathogenic nature, they mostly resolve down to:

-Baculovirusus (aka Granulosis Viruses, or GV)
-Entomopox viruses

Including (IIRC) picornavirus, cytoplasmic polyhedrosis virus, and Group C viruses. These are not practically treatable, and death is inevitable within 3-10 days, depending.

I won't cover those within the group of Bacteria, as the IVAB treatment rules those out.

This leaves us with a clearly visible fungus. As Entomogenous fungi underwent major reclassifications, I'm not going to cover that here due to time constraints, but will note the following:

Spores germinate on the host's cuticle, and (depending) use enzymes and/or mechanical pressure to achieve penetration into the cuticle, pushing through until they hit the invert equivalent of your vein or artery, and once inside and in the haemolymph, they begin to multiply by budding or hyphal fission, with the resulting blastospores spreading throughout the 'bloodstream', at which point...Well, you get the point.

Depending upon the type of fungus, the host dies either through extensive mycelial colonization in the lungs or gut, causing asphyxiation or starvation, or -- for those truly entomopathogenic fungi -- by poisoning the invert with the toxins generated in their blastospore/yeast phase.

If it were my tarantula, I would be applying Lotrimin AF or a vaginal yeast infection cream (same active ingredient, but higher percentage of active) with a Q-tip to the affected areas and seeing if that didn't help.

Not a bad idea: that was my first thought when I embarked on this fungal nightmare, myself, and while I initially did work with imidazole-derivatives (tioconazole, miconazole, etcetera), their activity differentiation by dosage is just TOO narrow to not risk killing the host (and not enough lets the host die of infection, which is what I've already witnessed). Although I haven't used Tolnaftate extensively enough yet to state that it would be significantly better (or worse) toxicologically than imidazole-derivatives, that's another easily found fungicide, but I'm not recommending it or saying it won't kill your pet.

I wouldn't vouch for the safety of any of them taken internally, which is how they'll be most helpful, as -- noted above -- external applications aren't going to assist once the fungus has made it inside

Also, most fungus thrives in a moist environment, could one not keep her in a bone dry enclosure with a water bowl to see if that also helped to remedy the situation?

I've addressed this elsewhere, and will be collating it again and put it on my site, but time currently forbids further commentary.

Maybe someone with more experience will chime in with some advice soon.

That would, I'm sad to say, be me. Not trying to be lofty about it, but the facts are, I've now dedicated a good amount of my time to coming up with (ideally) inexpensive, readily available, and a safe for inverts (most important!) compound/compounds for fungicidal activity, in the interest of helping EVERYONE to prevent/eliminate/treat Invert pathogens. With viruses pretty much outside the scope of my purview (antiviral drugs are luckily just about as rare as true viral infections in arachnids), and we already have known antibiotics which are invert-safe, that leaves the final and most pernicious of the microscopic trio: fungal pathogens.

I'm not trying to say I know everything (what I don't know you could collate into a second moon for the planet we're currently on), and definitely not about Mycology, per se. I will say I've put in the hours & work towards beating this, as I have, after long convos w/a number of professionals in the various fields, Invertebrate Pathology, in particular, come to the *tentative* conclusion that fungal pathogens are responsible for a MUCH larger number of Tarantulas and even scorpions that die, apparently idiopathically: those healthy for a day/week/month/year who suddenly croak, and not of old age, are prime suspects for fungal pathogens (by the appearance of the corpse you can determine quite easily which of those three is responsible; if the latter two, pins, a tablet and a dissection kit will tell on the others, though you'll need a microscope, as well).

Sad to say, I haven't found anyone else who has gathered this much disparate data into one place, so I'm the reluctant expert...And *I* don't have any good answers yet


~JMB
--
EDIT: I'd like to add that I am MORE than willing to abdicate my self-appointed position as "expert" when it comes to fungi, and even pathogens entirely, so anyone willing to take my place, please step forward. Seriously. No, I'm not kidding. Please do. Don't make me beg.

~J
--
Post Post Scriptum: I just realized I CAN'T be a Resident Expert, as I'm still merely an 'Arachnopeon'. Saved by a technicality! Hah!

 

[jmb]

You should check your PMs and email...

because, for lack of any other immediate action other than seperating and sanitizing cages, that's all I could think of that sounded safe. It won't have any affect if the infection is systemic, as we suppose it is, but we don't really know that. So I figure why take the risk that the infection is not yet systemic and, not having removed the fungus, allowing it to go systemic.

Something I should (probably) clarify: while topical treatments won't do anything to halt systemic issues, application of an INVERT-SAFE fungicide (even a weak one) to the external growth areas won't do any *harm*, really -- and as you'd said earlier, anything which saps the mycelial growth's strength does help attenuate it, though not always by very much.

IOW, snag some methylene blue (easier to get your hands on at the average pet store than Gentian Violet, which is nastier stuff to deal with, though better if you can get it), the stuff WITHOUT formalin/formaldehyde -- typically, it's in the marine section, in a 2% solution. If you've ever seen the stuff in crystalline form, you won't be too surprised to see that a 'mere' 2% solution is enough to stain all hell out of everything it touches (even adding a single mL is enough to render about a gallon of water visibly blue-tinged). That is safe, will stain her butt dark bl00, but is mildly fungicidal.

Hydrogen Peroxide is VERY overrated as a fungicidal agent. This is predominantly because fungi (kinda sorta) use the same de-activation methods which we use, which is why you can safely and painlessly irrigate a cut on your hand with it w/o oxidizing your own flesh but wreaking hell on stray bacteria somewhat. In brief, H2O2 in sufficient concentrations to prove fungicidal is usually also enough that, if you put your finger into a beaker of it, you'd pull back a stump (only partially kidding there -- if you ever see 40% or greater Hydrogen Peroxide, the pale blue stuff, you can see how corrosive it is...But I digress).

Iodine tincture -- that's got no small amount of fungicidal activity, although that's if you can get them; most of the stuff these days is povidone & the like, and I *seem* to have it somewhere in the back of my head that certain forms of iodine are more toxic to inverts than others (just as some forms are absolutely necessary for them to live, if you're familiar with the marine aquarium uses for iodine: gotta have it, really). So, if you've got pure iodine which you can dissolve in a suitable carrier (it's not terribly polar-solvent), that's good, just watch the concentration; of course, this is something you might not have either, as I've heard that iodine is becoming an increasingly controlled substance due to some bogus laws (I don't give a rat's poot if it's a drug precursor: it's a *great* staining substance, sterilizer for water whilst hiking, and a ton of other things, and that my access to something which I have legitimate uses for is restricted irritates me no end....But I'm digressing again.)

Tegosept/Methosept/<insert brand name here>: these all come down to being (mostly) paraben-based, and if you check your PM's (your box is full, BTW) and your email, where I sent that last part of the msg I was trying to send you earlier, you will note that I listed things to Avoid Like The Plague, such as EDTA, Quaternary ammonium compounds, and DD Urea in *particular*, as the sterilizing action is via the release of formaldehydes; again, all things great (like 3-6% sodium hypochlorite) for sanitizing tanks and other removables (food/water dishes, hides, etcetera), but NOT things to apply to your pet. Oh, and be SURE and get ALL the bleach off them prior to re-use (after a bleach soak, soak for a few in water, rinse, repeat).

And, Jason, if you have any internal treatment ideas like you where alluding to ealier, I would love to hear about them.:worship: :worship: :worship:
Viva Gaia!!!

Check your PM's and your email on that. I'm sorry we're not in the same state, as I'd happily just give you what I've got, and while I don't mind shipping it, you're better off if you can find stuff locally.

For the record: ETOH/ethanol aka Ethyl Alcohol is actually a vastly superior sterilizing agent compared to isopropanol, aka (iso)Propyl Alcohol, however -- again -- due in part to our being founded by Puritans here in the great Stati Uniti, and due in part to the denizens desiring to live in Nerf World [tm], this isn't something one can purchase without a denaturing agent unless you're willing to pop for a bottle of Everclear (which is ~95% ethanol, and can be rendered anhydrous without much effort if you want to go for the full 100%). It *IS* fungicidal and sporicidal, but too costly to use in large cleanup efforts, and yes, probably too toxic in large amounts to douse your T in. Adding a single drop into about 10ml of a 2% methylene blue solution should not, I'd add, do any harm, provided you allow the ETOH to evaporate (which it will).

HTH,


~JMB

 

[omni]

Has a culture been made? This would identify the infecting fungus. It may be one that could be effectively treated by periods of UV exposure.

 

[JayzunBoget]

Some questions for JMB

I have very little time to make this post. I wanted to ask you, Jason, here so everyone else can benefit from what I have heard from you.
If I understand correctly, you recommend a drop of denatured ethyl alcohol (like Everclear) in 10 ml of Methyl Blue solution. I have some questions.
You mentioned that I could prepare Everclear to use as the ethyl alcohol. How do I do this?
You mentioned that most methyl blue was available as 2% (the stuff I have is) and that you would perhaps recommend .2% more highly. Do you recommend I cut it with distilled water? I use methyl blue as an anti-fungal agent for my poison dart frog eggs. I use a ratio of something like 50:1of reverse osmosis water to methyl blue. A friend mixed hers at something like 5:1 for Potter Park Zoos eggs and they all died. When she tried my solution, she had fewer deaths.
You also mentioned that you had some ideas on how to orally dose a tarantula. I would be unspeakably grateful for any of that you have to share.
Come to mention that, what dosage do you recommend that I try, how often and for how many days.
I know that you are not a vet, but you have such an amazing handle on this whole situation that I don't think there are very many in the whole world that could equal it. As you said, a very rarefied profession and then you have a very rarefied hobby! I can't tell you how grateful I am for all of the attention that you have given this case.

 

[jmb]

Definitely Read This Carefully!

If I understand correctly, you recommend a drop of denatured ethyl alcohol (like Everclear) in 10 ml of Methyl Blue solution. I have some questions.
You mentioned that I could prepare Everclear to use as the ethyl alcohol. How do I do this?

OK, first off: No, I was saying specifically NOT to use de-natured alcohol, but instead to use Ethyl alcohol (aka Ethanol, often abbreviated ETOH -- yes, the same alcohol we humans get smashed on). Denatured Ethanol is TOXIC. Lethally so.

The fact is that mass-production of ethyl alcohol in an adequately pure form to sell it at a hefty profit for a few dollars a gallon is easily done (and currently is) -- but, to prevent the erstwhile Laboratory worker from getting their kicks from a supply company and dodging the ATF & appropriate Sin Tax, they de-nature it by cutting it with VERY POISONOUS THINGS. DO NOT USE DENATURED ALCOHOL.

Sparing you the chemistry lesson, I'll just add that, no, you cannot remove the highly toxic denaturant(s), and you shouldn't bother. Personally, as I don't wind up using very much ETOH for lab-purposes (at least I didn't used to), I'd generally just buy a bottle of Everclear from the local liquor store (who I'm probably an easy sell as being a lush, considering I've been purchasing ever-increasing volumes, but nevermind that), I'm not up to reinstating a large account w/FisherSci, as their prices basically suck, and suck HARD on a small scale (as in, not 200G of it).

I SAY AGAIN: DO NOT USE DENATURED ALCOHOL MEDICALLY. The fumes alone are toxic to yourself and your invertebrates.

OK. Assuming you're of adequate legal age to purchase 'drinking' grade ETOH (aka 'Everclear' and the like), or you have a friendly Chemist friend who works for Dow and he takes pity on you and spares a few drops of the liter or three they ordered last from FisherSci for "Ethanol 99.5%, anhydrous, 200 proof" (yes, you can remove the water from alcohol, but that's hardly necessary for the task at hand), take a VERY small amount (you don't need much) and prepare to do some mixing. I'll provide a more detailed list of necessary materials below.

You mentioned that most methyl blue was available as 2% (the stuff I have is) and that you would perhaps recommend .2% more highly. Do you recommend I cut it with distilled water?

Absolutely. Use *steam distilled* water for everything in any 'medicinally compounding'/chemistry techniques you do -- that's my advice, not the least of which is because many times, some fungicides (quaternary ammonium compounds, parabens, DDU and some others) are, to varying degrees, rendered inactive upon hitting any residual chlorine/chloramine (I don't know if they still have the ammonia-treatment stage along with the chlorine treatment stage at your local WSSC; with Chloramine's possible (heh) carcinogen status, they may do that no more, but I've not checked). In any event, the Chlorine/chloramine will mess up the microscale amounts of the chems we're discussing the use of, so yes: not merely de-ionized or RO water, but distilled, just to be thorough.

I use methyl blue as an anti-fungal agent for my poison dart frog eggs. I use a ratio of something like 50:1 of reverse osmosis water to methyl blue. A friend mixed hers at something like 5:1 for Potter Park Zoos eggs and they all died. When she tried my solution, she had fewer deaths.

No surprise, as amphibians and the like have far more permeable skins than ours -- or an invert's, which is worth noting -- and anything in the water they're in is inevitably in them, as well. Methylene blue used to be (and may still be) standard issue in the EMT/BS-Compliant labs where you had a Cyanide/CO kit: one syringe w/a few ml of Methylene blue injected directly into a human can bring them back from Carbon monoxide or HCN death, as it converts haemoglobin to methamglobin (IIRC), or thereabouts -- in any case, it changes the blood's affinity for HCN, CO and CO2, and increases overall O2 affinity, so it can be a life-saver...For humans. Frogs, I can't say, though I'd suspect that a 5:1 ratio (and is that 5 parts water to 1 part PURE Methylene blue, as in the solid, greenish-blue crystalline form? Holy hell, that'd probably kill *ME* if you dipped me in it....) is a tad high, though you aren't saying if this is by weight or volume, and that's important as well...Keep things precise, to avoid confusion, and hopefully prevent anything tragic...On that note, when you say 50:1, do you mean 50 parts, by volume, of water, to 1 part, by volume, of the 2% Methylene blue solution? I'm assuming so, as a mixture by weight of Water:MB, both being 100% purity, in a 50:1 ratio, would be enough to STAIN THE PLANET :>

You also mentioned that you had some ideas on how to orally dose a tarantula. I would be unspeakably grateful for any of that you have to share.
Come to mention that, what dosage do you recommend that I try, how often and for how many days.

I'll come back to this in a moment (or make a separate post about it, as it's information both elementary, but which may not have occurred to some, so it probably deserves a separate reply). First, I'm going to make another discrete post to clarify what I told you before, via phone.

I know that you are not a vet

It is worth putting forward, again, the fact that

-I am NOT a DVM;
-I am NOT an MD;

Anyone doing anything which I've described (and note I've been *avoiding* describing too much about some substances I've been doing work with, not to be obscuring information, but just so ppl don't run w/what they think might work, but which will more likely prove injurious or fatal to their pets) and harming their pets, themselves, or anyone/anything else should kindly accept responsibility for their own actions, as many of the things I've discussed publicly and/or posted publicly are EXPERIMENTAL, and even those things using GRAS-status substances are NOT guaranteed to be OK in the long-term. Period. If I post something which IS the advice of a given medical professional, I'll clarify such information appropriately, with their permission (which I'm unlikely to obtain from them), with attributions appropriately.

In short: you try some wack-a-doo notion you found posted on the Internet and test it on your dog, your cat, your scorpion, your mom, or yourself, and everything around you dies, that is YOUR FAULT. Any attempts to hold me liable for anything I've said and which I've taken great pains to label as EXPERIMENTAL and of unknown safety will result in, more likely than not, a sound beating in the courts (if it came to litigation). Trust me on that last part. Not trying to sound threatening, just trying to convey the proper gravity.

Now, consider your unruly selves properly disclaimed.

but you have such an amazing handle on this whole situation that I don't think there are very many in the whole world that could equal it.

I appreciate the high praise: I sincerely do. All the same, let me assure you that I do not (yet) have the answers which I'm looking for, although considering my track record with the Gordian knots I've been handed, the use of razor-sharp intellect proves its worth (yes, I have no humility).

I can't tell you how grateful I am for all of the attention that you have given this case.

I'm honestly just glad to be of assistance, and it was, admittedly, purely by providence (or being jammed for ~$700 -- one of the two) that I happened to be actively engaged in finding solutions for pathogens of this type, at this time.

I'd be happy to help in any event - but if you'd asked me a year ago , I'd have less information specific to this topic than I do now.

More in a bit,


~JMB

 

[JayzunBoget]

Ok, a long overdue update...

Well, almost three weeks have passed since I began this thread and Gaia (the T. blondi in question) is still alive, but lately has been looking week.

This is her about a week to week and a half ago. I treated her with the betadine topically and cleaned away the light cottony fungus that appeared around her pedicel and the knuckles surrounding her patellas. That never returned and I have come to suspect that this was a result of opportunistic fungi flourishing after I misted my cage. I now know better. If those of you reading this don't know better, do a search. It's appearantly a surefire way to get a blondi to mold. The original melanization (sp?) does not seem to have progressed much at all. Her abdomen is still as pink as a ... well you get the idea.

When I saw this picture it made me question her gender, but no, those are not bulgey pedipalps, the camera just adds 5 ounces!

Even as beat up as it is, her exoskeleton puts off a lot of shine. You will just have to take my word that the white parts are shine as opposed to fungus.

Ok, this is from just 3-4 days ago and I just about screamed like a little girl when I saw it! That is indeed the production of new setae just under her cuticle you are seeing! At this point she started being more active than I have seen before, coming out into a more exposed part of the cage. Her movements are still a bit odd but can be very forcefull. She walks with her but up off the ground.

Compare this next picture with the first from this post. All of the abdomen is darker, but the melanisized part is no thicker. There is almost no progression of the melanisized area.

Today I found her "leaning over" against the side of the cage as if she were drunk. Her feet were not all supporting her. Near by her there was a patch of white that appeared to be the same consistency and color of drying "white out" correction fluid. I nudged her to see if she was dead and she tokk several uncoordiated steps forward and there was another small patch of this white stuff about where her epigastric furrow. Now I have seen normal uric acid "pee" from tarantulas, but this looked much more viscus and not chalky. I took the best pic I could with my camera phone as my wife has the digital.

So, it was looking like Gaia had slipped out from under the gun and perhaps did no have a systemic fungal infection after all. She has been living with this condition for about two months now. She was looking stronger and about to molt, possibly freeing her form this condition altogether. Now she looks rilly bad. Damn...
I never did decide on a treatment dosage or regimen for the possible systemic infection. I kind of dragged that out toward the end because evidence seemed not to indicate that it was systemic. Now I just don't know what to think. Anyone know what that white mass may have been? Wierd pee or something else. I saved it, maybe I can get my pet store's vet to culture it. See if it reveals anything.
Anyways, that's the update. (expletive)

 

[Drachenjager]

I've got some of that same mold as in Post #12 in my A. seemanni's tank. I have her on peat moss (Schultz bag from Wal-Mart) and I already changed it out once because of it. A couple of days later, it came back. My other tanks using the same peat from the same bag don't have this problem. They're all Kritter Keeper type tanks, but different sizes (1 mini, 3 small, 1 large). The large one is the one with the problem.

keep the seemani dry as a bone in death valley lol
that will end the fungal problem
just give her a water dish and keep it full

 

[apidaeman]

What doesn't kill you only makes you stronger.
If she pulls though she would qualify to be amoung the toughest T's around.

 

[Coby]

Before she makes it to her next moult take her out and put her in another tank - in that last pic of her the coco fibre is wet not moist. She is obviosly looking better but still not good, all these recommendations of drugs who knows the outcome of what such a mixture would cause. Let her dry out a bit, another tank will reduce the chance of another mold infection.

 

[JayzunBoget]

Before she makes it to her next moult take her out and put her in another tank - in that last pic of her the coco fibre is wet not moist... ...Let her dry out a bit, another tank will reduce the chance of another mold infection.

I had just moistened the coco coir, the water was in the process of spreading out. After it had spread, it was evenly just lightly moist. In the first pics it has dried out more than I usually allow it to. I normally keep the substrate lightly moist. I am maintaining the humidity at 65% to 75%.
Common consensus seems to agree that drying out a fungally infected tarantula is the best course of action. I would agree if either it was definately a topical infection or if the tarantula was from a dry environment.
I kept my blondi in a humid environment with the intent of doing anything I could to boost her immune system, which has all along been my only real weapon against a possible systemic fungal infection.

She is obviosly looking better but still not good, all these recommendations of drugs who knows the outcome of what such a mixture would cause.

Too true, too true. Unfortunately every book that I have read so far seems to agree on the outcome of not treating a systemically infected tarantula.

 

[scar is my t]

if u got the tarantulas keepers guide it has some info on fungi.i got that book i will read that part and get back to u later

 

[JayzunBoget]

if u got the tarantulas keepers guide it has some info on fungi.i got that book i will read that part and get back to u later

I appreciate the offer. Schultz and Schultz recommend a topical application of gentian violet or betadine for topical infections. They pretty much tell you to make peace with the spider gods for systemic infections.
As far as I know, the earlier poster jmb came the closest to suggesting actual treatment for systemic fungal infections.
Though that is one hell of a book!! I got my copy signed!!