Getting my first hot snake

[SonsofArachne]

I would assume any heavy bodied viper that lives on the ground would be a good choice as long as you never get close to it as they’re not exactly athletic until they decide to strike and are usually happy to stay put

Actually the big heavy-bodied ground vipers like gaboons, rhinos, puff adders, etc. are just about the WORST choice for a beginner. People get over confident because of their general slowness, but they actually the among the fastest strikers of all venomous snakes, much faster that cobra. And their venom is extremely potent. A hot keeper in my home town got bit by his rhino viper when he took it out to mist it, got too close, and then BAM. He almost died because no local zoos kept rhino vipers, so the antivenom had to be flown in.

 

[TownesVanZandt]

But I do like when a snake has looks.(Bright colors)

Why not a milk snake then? They come in all sorts of beautiful colours and they are nonvenomous . Or perhaps a false water cobra (Hydrodynastes gigas) if you want a non-lethal venomous one.

 

[Dennis Nedry]

Actually the big heavy-bodied ground vipers like gaboons, rhinos, puff adders, etc. are just about the WORST choice for a beginner. People get over confident because of their general slowness, but they actually the among the fastest strikers of all venomous snakes, much faster that cobra. And their venom is extremely potent. A hot keeper in my home town got bit by his rhino viper when he took it out to mist it, got too close, and then BAM. He almost died because no local zoos kept rhino vipers, so the antivenom had to be flown in.

And that’s my point. If you don’t go anywhere near it like he did and you do all enclosure maintenance with long tongs then you won’t have as much of a chance at getting bitten. Also when I say “heavy bodied viper” that includes rattlers like you said, not just the fat slug shaped Bitis species

 

[l4nsky]

Ok, so this is a hobby that I really want to break into one day and I've done a dizzying amount of research on the subject. I've charted my own path and it goes something like this:

Keep a king rat snake and a green tree python without being tagged by either in a year (King rats are basically elapids in everything but the venom. They are fast, large, nervous, bluffers that will readily strike when the opportunity presents itself. GTP's are slow in comparison, but strike quick, unpredictably, and can steal hooks like mambas and arboreal vipers. Both species have a mean bite and will make you think twice about your decisions)

Get a Boiga sp (mangrove snake) or false water cobra, both are rear fanged venomous with potentially irritable attitudes. Hone my skills on something more punishing then a GTP or king rat, but less punishing then a copperhead.

Get a small, native venomous snake like a copperhead or pygmy rattler. That way antivenin is available in state and doesn't have to be stolen from a zoo or flown in from Miami-Dade.

Get a larger native venomous like a timber rattlesnake or a cottonmouth. This will give me more experience with larger hots with the benefit of more readily available antivenin.

Get a smaller arboreal viper like an eyelash viper or Waglers pit viper. By this time, I should be comfortable with hots and can branch out in a safer manner towards those with no readily available antivenin.

Get a larger pit viper like a gaboon or diamondback rattler. This will give me confidence with the larger, more unpredictable species.

Elapids. Maybe a leucistic monocled cobra or Egyptian cobra for starters then the sky is the limit (jameson's mamba, black tree cobras, mangshan viper, bushmasters, Chinese banded king are the holy grail species for me.)

OP, you are a step ahead of everyone in that you've had a mentor who has given you first hand experience, but you haven't had to deal with everything yet. What happens if you get a gaboon with a stuck eye cap or an eastern diamondback that has a mite problem. You'll be out of your depth real fast. Further, what is your experience like with other snakes? Have you ever had to handle a GTP with their typical attitude? Ever been on the business end of a Burmese python with an aggressive feeding response? Ever tailed a wild coach whip or blue racer and had it turn around on you? If the answer is no to any of these questions (or yes, but I was bitten), you're not ready to advance beyond the small natives. Also, have you posed this question to your mentor? I would be extremely surprised if they said anything but a small, native venomous for starters. My suggestion is a copperhead. It's not glamorous, but it has several advantages, as described above. When and only when you have the experience that you no longer believe they dont hook well, do I suggest moving up to another species.

I say this with the hobby in mind. First, if you are bitten by a non native venomous snake, it's just ammunition in the gun pointed squarely at the hot community in general and it's one step closer to destroying the hobby. The second point is they will likely have to take the antivenin from a local zoo, meaning those people that care for the exhibit animals wont have a safety net to rely on for an unknown amount of time. Both are irresponsible outcomes that can be avoided by simply being patient.

Well, there's my wall of text for the day. Hope it got my point across.

Thanks,
--Matt

 

[l4nsky]

And that’s my point. If you don’t go anywhere near it like he did and you do all enclosure maintenance with long tongs then you won’t have as much of a chance at getting bitten. Also when I say “heavy bodied viper” that includes rattlers like you said, not just the fat slug shaped Bitis species

This isnt always an option (stuck eye caps, mite infestation, mouth infections and nose rubs needing treatment). If you have the animal, you better be able to handle it safely.

 

[schmiggle]

This isnt always an option (stuck eye caps, mite infestation, mouth infections and nose rubs needing treatment). If you have the animal, you better be able to handle it safely.

Plus routine cage maintenance. There is no situation in which you can keep a snake without having to handle it ever.

 

[EtienneN]

Also this might have been said before, but venomous snake venom will dry and flake off on the substrate, and repeated improper/unprotected exposure will cause basically full on anaphylaxis if you aren’t careful. That makes T. blondi hairs look like dandelion seeds.

 

[The Snark]

but venomous snake venom will dry and flake off on the substrate,

That's sounds like the stuff straight from nightmares. Airborne neuro and hemotoxins.

 

[l4nsky]

Also this might have been said before, but venomous snake venom will dry and flake off on the substrate, and repeated improper/unprotected exposure will cause basically full on anaphylaxis if you aren’t careful. That makes T. blondi hairs look like dandelion seeds.

Just one more reason I wont be keeping spitting cobras in the future...

 

[CJJon]

Plus routine cage maintenance. There is no situation in which you can keep a snake without having to handle it ever.

Right! It is fantasy to think any snake will always live on our terms. Just doesn't work like that. It is just the wrong way to think and will get you killed. No hot snake keeper worth their salt would ever agree with being able to keep snakes by remote control.

 

[The Snark]

Plus routine cage maintenance. There is no situation in which you can keep a snake without having to handle it ever.

With rare exceptions. Nobody has been in the old man's containment in years. All maintenance and care is done through hatches in the roof, 8 feet in the air. The door is double locked and reputedly, nobody knows where the keys have got off to. You simply don't want to take the chance of 18 feet of Hannah going on holiday in that urban environment. No expert handling team could be certain they could fully control him and no one would get bitten.

Of interest, he was working on enlarging the holes of the 1/2 inch wire mesh. So they dug out the sand at the bottom and installed the fine stainless steel screen inside the mesh then moved the sand back, all done with 12-15 foot poles. Did a very neat job. The screen moves and flexes so his nose can't 'get a grip'.

 

[l4nsky]

He's gorgeous! Do you have any other info like locality collected etc? They are usually a tan coloration and they lose the majority of that banding when they get any decent size. Usually, when I see kings like that, they're typically from China.

Thanks,
--Matt

 

[The Snark]

He's gorgeous! Do you have any other info like locality collected etc? They are usually a tan coloration and they lose the majority of that banding when they get any decent size. Usually, when I see kings like that, they're typically from China.

The Hannah I assume?
Locality: All of Asia extending through India. Preferred habitat; swamps and grasslands. Mobility wise, equally capable on firm dry ground, thick grass and brush, marshlands and swimming. Of note, they cannot climb bushes or trees except 'standing on their tails' where they can extend up about 2/3rds of their body length.
Coloration: Alters according to temperature. From dusty black where the annular rings are clearly visible in cool/cold environments turning to a olive bronze or even tan color when their hunting territory is predominantly sunny. The consensus is their coloration changes are connected to their metabolism but the mechanisms involved aren't fully understood.
Preferred prey: Amphibians, opheophagus by opportunity. It is likely they would also prey on other reptiles as chance permits.

Can't climb? Always an exception. Note annular rings almost invisible in summer coloration.

Injured, rescued. Below vent. Hoped it survived. Young juvenile, annular rings now visible.

Very young. Just starting to develop rings. Love the bug eyes of the kids.

Cruising lazily up a river.

 

[l4nsky]

The Hannah I assume?
Locality: All of Asia extending through India

Correct, but I was more interested in this specimen's collection locality.

Coloration: Alters according to temperature. From dusty black where the annular rings are clearly visible in cool/cold environments turning to a olive bronze or even tan color when their hunting territory is predominantly sunny. The consensus is their coloration changes are connected to their metabolism but the mechanisms involved aren't fully understood.

Uhhhhhh.... What? Well that goes against everything I've read. Do you happen to know of any studies or articles on this adaptation in O. hannah? I guess it kind of makes sense. The quote unquote banded kings, being those with the darkest coloration paired with the bright banding, are usually found in China locales. China is in the northern part of their range, so cooler temps equals darker coloration. So, in theory if a southern Indian King Cobra is kept at the parameters a Chinese king is exposed to, it will darken, exposing the bright banding like neonates and this is all temperature dependent, not specific localities and their associated colors and patterns?

Thanks,
--Matt

 

[The Snark]

Location. Ground zero for Hannah WAS cobra swamp, where they built Suvarnabhumi airport. The old man above pictured was captured in the Mae Taeng valley about 30 km north of Chiang Mai. Age unknown.

I've read too many theories of their coloration and am going entirely by observation in the wild. I suspect the very bright, marked black and yellow banding is a product of a continuously cool climate over many generations and possibly selective captive breeding. The warmer the climes, the more tan with a loss of delineation. Some southern India, Malaysian and Indonesian members have no banding at all and remain light colored year round. My suspicions of the color being entirely climate dependent is born out that there is only one Hannah; all are variations of a single species.
Around here they (obviously) alter from light bronze to dusty black. Since we have had an exceptional mild series of winters lately I haven't seen any starkly black in the wild.

Close up of the Old Man. He isn't really black.

 

[l4nsky]

My suspicions of the color being entirely climate dependent is born out that there is only one Hannah; all are variations of a single species.

As of now, but animals that have such a large range and are not transient or migratory typically will have subspecies or at the very least distinct localities. Take the asian water monitor (Varanus salvator). Large range with quite a few different recognized subspecies and localities.

Thanks,
--Matt

 

[The Snark]

As of now, but animals that have such a large range and are not transient or migratory typically will have subspecies or at the very least distinct localities.

Absolutely. This aptly demonstrates how fluid animal evolution is. An even better example would be the Isan cobra. In appearance and habits it was considered for many years to be the fourth native cobra of Thailand. Enter genetics and it was determined to be Siamensis that simply evolved differently in the hotter, more arid eastern Thailand area.

 

[Schledog]

Lol I keep on seeing you guys saying O. Hannah and I think of lelo and stitch.

 

[Mordax8393]

@Jayandash Here is my best answer.

My experience level: Never personally kept a hot snake but planning to get one soon. However I have handled (hook, gloves, etc. Obviously not free handled) countless wild venomous snakes including Mojave rattlesnakes, bushmaster, etc. So I would say I am fairly knowledgeable but definitely not an expert.

Before getting a hot snake: I agree what others have said - don't buy a hot snake if there is any doubt in your mind about ability/species.

For me, there are only three types of snake venom. Harmless/mildly venomous such as your average colubrid, boa, or python, meaning handle normally (hands), venomous but not deadly, such as trimeresurus and bothriechis, meaning handle like a deadly snake but you don't need antivenom with you, and deadly venomous (crotalus, Naja, etc.) meaning handle like a deadly snake and have antivenom available. A rock rattlesnake bite is not any less of an emergency than a mojave rattlesnakes bite. Quoting Dingo SA, it's like comparing falling off a fifty floor building to falling off a hundred floor one.

My thoughts on antivenom: if it can kill you, have antivenom available within 1 hour. Less if it is oxyuranus, dendroaspis, etc. Whether or not it can kill you, have an EpiPen in case of allergic reaction ready within 5 minutes. Go to the hospital right away, we don't need anyone dying, but don't say it was a pet snake either. Or at least say you were doing research when you got bit. Avoid media attention. We don't need rules being made against owning snakes because you did something stupid. And we really don't want the general public to hate snakes and snake owners even more.

My thoughts on handling: have someone who can arrive in 5 minutes or less in case of a bite. For anything terrestrial: wear boots. If it is under 3 feet use gloves to handle, otherwise gloves + hook. Use double protection - gloves + tongs for feeding, etc. The most important thing is to give these snakes the respect they need. Once you begin getting careless and handling snakes while distracted or while wearing flip flops is when you get bit.

Choice of species: really, it is experience. I am from the US, so obviously I'm most comfortable with vipers. An Australian would be more comfortable with elapids. Get what family you are most comfortable with. Best vipers: Trimeresurus/tropidolaemus sp., Atheris sp, Bothriechis sp, small crotalus (lepidus etc.), Agkistrodon. Best beginner elapids: Aspidelaps lubricus, death adders, "tamer" Naja - siamensis, etc.

Although venomous snakes shouldn't be feared, they are extremely dangerous. Only get one if you are 100% confident.

 

[l4nsky]

@Jayandash Here is my best answer.

My experience level: Never personally kept a hot snake but planning to get one soon. However I have handled (hook, gloves, etc. Obviously not free handled) countless wild venomous snakes including Mojave rattlesnakes, bushmaster, etc. So I would say I am fairly knowledgeable but definitely not an expert.

Before getting a hot snake: I agree what others have said - don't buy a hot snake if there is any doubt in your mind about ability/species.

For me, there are only three types of snake venom. Harmless/mildly venomous such as your average colubrid, boa, or python, meaning handle normally (hands), venomous but not deadly, such as trimeresurus and bothriechis, meaning handle like a deadly snake but you don't need antivenom with you, and deadly venomous (crotalus, Naja, etc.) meaning handle like a deadly snake and have antivenom available. A rock rattlesnake bite is not any less of an emergency than a mojave rattlesnakes bite. Quoting Dingo SA, it's like comparing falling off a fifty floor building to falling off a hundred floor one.

My thoughts on antivenom: if it can kill you, have antivenom available within 1 hour. Less if it is oxyuranus, dendroaspis, etc. Whether or not it can kill you, have an EpiPen in case of allergic reaction ready within 5 minutes. Go to the hospital right away, we don't need anyone dying, but don't say it was a pet snake either. Or at least say you were doing research when you got bit. Avoid media attention. We don't need rules being made against owning snakes because you did something stupid. And we really don't want the general public to hate snakes and snake owners even more.

My thoughts on handling: have someone who can arrive in 5 minutes or less in case of a bite. For anything terrestrial: wear boots. If it is under 3 feet use gloves to handle, otherwise gloves + hook. Use double protection - gloves + tongs for feeding, etc. The most important thing is to give these snakes the respect they need. Once you begin getting careless and handling snakes while distracted or while wearing flip flops is when you get bit.

Choice of species: really, it is experience. I am from the US, so obviously I'm most comfortable with vipers. An Australian would be more comfortable with elapids. Get what family you are most comfortable with. Best vipers: Trimeresurus/tropidolaemus sp., Atheris sp, Bothriechis sp, small crotalus (lepidus etc.), Agkistrodon. Best beginner elapids: Aspidelaps lubricus, death adders, "tamer" Naja - siamensis, etc.

Although venomous snakes shouldn't be feared, they are extremely dangerous. Only get one if you are 100% confident.

Great advice, but I wouldn't include siamensis as a good entry level elapid. Spitters just add another layer of difficulty with eye shields and being able to spit through enclosure ventilation at an unwary, unshielded passerby. Where did you get a chance to handle a wild Lachesis sp, if I may ask?