GBB versus Pink zebra tarantula vs GBB

[Chris LXXIX]

Nightshady, you're an awesome guy

Yeah of course he is... I fail to realize why people here (except me) didn't spotted Richard Dean 'MacGyver' Anderson disguised as a user from Texas

 

[greenbb]

Nightshady, you're an awesome guy, but we are in disagreement here.

First, this really isn't so much about demonizing that guy. Please re-read some of his posts (or at least the parts people are quoting). It's fine to have a different opinion. However, he was rude from the start, labeling the people who previously offered the OP as being part of a cult (name-calling). He also has elements of someone who is here to stir things up. This thread was dead for about *two weeks*. I bet the OP already bought her pet (or at least made a decision). So a brand new account owner comes on to call the majority of people previously offering advice names? Then he goes on to say he lets his preschool kids handle? Hmmmm...

@Lil Paws you, @miss moxie, @Ant were all rude at the start, not me. @miss moxie 's first reply to my post was an eye roll and sarcasm and plenty more followed.

@Ant likened my behavior to flying kids to a warzone to teach them a lesson. @miss moxie ridiculed it by saying she's trying to teach her kids about frostbite by freezing them in the cold. Then @Ant called me a troll, and you @Lil Paws agreed.

Your behavior is detriment to the community here. Your opinions should be treated like opinions. I've never condescended your opinion or reasons for not handling like you have mine. I think your opinions are completely valid and reasonable. That doesn't invalidate mine.

@Lil Paws -- you have done plenty here to villify me at the start, and you're continuing to do it now.

All anyone has to do is read the post history starting from my original post:

http://arachnoboards.com/threads/gbb-versus-pink-zebra-tarantula-vs-gbb.301303/page-4#post-2722153

On top of that, there are safety issues. I respect you let your teenage son handle his pet and that you taught him how to do it safely, but a 13 year old is not the same as a preschooler.

I am not anti-handling. I don't do it myself, but I don't agree it's always bad if the owner is careful and takes their animal's personality into consideration. If an animal comes out onto one's hand without being heavily poked and prodded and does not show signs of stress then it is not afraid. Many Ts don't want to be handled, but there are always exceptions to rules and these animals (be as simple as they are) appear to have a lot of variations of personalities even within a species. If someone is being respectful to their pet, knows how to read its body language, and taking safety precautions? Good for them.

Yes, I agree. This is what I am doing when handling.

But it is concerning to involve very small children in that directly and act like it's no a big deal. I find it interesting that for all we've heard of this person talking about how much he and his very small children handle, he barely touches how he does it *safely* for either his children or his pets.

If a T is in a 3 YO's hand I don't buy for a second there is enough distance for the T not to hair that child in the face (unless you have a freakishly big 3 YO or your child has arms of a chimp). I don't buy for a second you can keep a preschooler from putting his or her face close to the T. I can barely keep my calm 8 year old from putting her face close to a T when I have the lid open—and she is a mellow child for her age.

Then having taught some classes with differently aged children and known a number of my kid's friends since they were babies, I've seen that even wonderfully mellow, thoughtful preschoolers have unpredictable impulse control. They all have "crazy little kid moments" where they just can't control their little bodies and do something unpredictable. It's normal for that age. Kids are pretty much like that until they are about 10ish. That—along with the small size of a preschooler and their delicate skin—does not make for safe T handling—even with a parent being close and careful.

And while the risk is low if you have a mellow child and mellow T, if an accident does happen—especially if it involves injury on the small child's part—it could be very serious. While the NW species have low toxin venom, there's still no guarantee that someone won't have an allergic reaction. The ultricating hairs sound even more confusing to deal with—especially if they get into a child's eyes (that boy was in and out of the hospital for over a year!).

And here is the elitist condescension. You have an opinion about the merits and the safety. Instead of respecting my opinion, you and your crew are simply saying to me that you know better.

Why are some of us so upset about that when it's someone else's choice to risk? Because stupid things like that can impact animal ownership. If enough incidents come out in the media, Ts can and will become banned. That risks folks' ability to add to their collection and it even risks ownership if your pets get confiscated.

Look at pitbulls? While they have a high prey drive if they are not well-socialized as small pups, they were bred to be gentle with humans. Petey from the Little Rascals was a pitbull. They used to be a staple family dog back then the same way Golden Retrievers are this day. That's because they are bred to be human-friendly. You want a dog who fights to be gentle with humans so you can pull it out of the ring without getting your arm chewed off. The thing is pits now have a reputation for being scary, and there are loads of people who misunderstand them—believing they are born wanting to chew off people's faces.

What happens from that? A couple pit owners do not keep/raise their dogs safely, and a couple people (or pets) get hurt. Then the media latches on more and more, and the whole breed gets banned in cities and even countries. People's beloved pets are removed and euthanized because of public ignorance and a few owners who disregard safety.

That could very easily happen with tarantulas. Spiders—especially large hairy ones—are much more terrifying to the majority of the human population than a dog. I think the fear of spiders is even natural unless someone has been desensitized when they were young.

So the question, my friend, is do you want someone's cavalier attitude (or a newbie following someone else's cavalier advice) to put owning our pets at risk?

I have loads of respect for owners who care about their animals—be they handlers or not. I don't for people who are rude to people who think differently than them and choose to treat animals like toys—especially when these animals are already misunderstood to begin with.

When was the last time you heard about a child walking through the park only to get attacked by an off-leash tarantula? Seriously, you're just inventing fantasy issues here. A pitbull has and can kill people. People just out for a walk have been killed by dogs. This whole line of thinking makes me feel like you are a few cards short of a full deck.

 

[greenbb]

I just went ahead and ignored him. It's obvious that there is nothing of value to be learned from him. There isn't even anything refreshing to be found in his views, just another arrogant newbie spreading ignorant opinions. For most, it would be enough to see a ton of examples where a tarantula fell and died or lost limbs. But he is not most-- oh no. He is far above us.

You see, I don't talk no goods with words n stuff but he is grandiose in his vocabulary-- he is the golden standard.

The golden standard of mediocrity. No point arguing with stupid. Now, who's going to post the South Park beating a dead horse clip?

You are the one who met my post with sarcasm and condescension literally in your very first reply to me. Here you are calling me stupid and calling me ignorant because I don't hold the same opinion as you do.

 

[Swoop]

We already went over your first post and it is hilariously selfish, irresponsible and antagonistic. Perhaps you were responding in kind, but the fact remains you came here to fight and that's exactly what happened.

You should try saying "no" to your kids when they want to do something they shouldn't. It's called "parenting" and it's very popular among people who have children.

 

[greenbb]

We already went over your first post and it is hilariously selfish, irresponsible and antagonistic. Perhaps you were responding in kind, but the fact remains you came here to fight and that's exactly what happened.

You should try saying "no" to your kids when they want to do something they shouldn't. It's called "parenting" and it's very popular among people who have children.

I did not come here to fight. I came here to share my opinion and advice as a parent for the benefit of other parents, and to push back against the elitist condescension that you and the other 4 clowns in the circus like to browbeat people with.

 

[Swoop]

I already quoted your first post in which you said you wanted to 'get in people's faces about handling' so I won't bother to quote you again.

I would love to misrepresent you but it's difficult when you hold two conflicting positions.

 

[Nightstalker47]

@greenbb You seem to forget just how quick you were to shoot down everyone else's responses. Most coming from experienced keepers, unlike yourself. You even go as far as saying "don't listen to anyone here". Yet you then complain that no one will hear you out...and of course the victim card comes flying out. Typical.

Next up you say that were all in the wrong regarding the risks that come with handling. All based on your anecdote, that you handled with your kids and nothing went wrong.

Yet you then immediately dismiss any anecdotal evidence that was provided to refute your experience. Can you not see the pattern here?

Your are clearly deluded. Wake up man.

 

[greenbb]

I already quoted your first post in which you said you wanted to 'get in people's faces about handling' so I won't bother to quote you again.

I would love to misrepresent you but it's difficult when you hold two conflicting positions.

No that is totally accurate, and I do mean that. I think the put-down and the vilification should stop. You guys absolutely have experience raising T's, and I'm sure you and others know a lot about them, more than I know I'm sure. But you also don't get that all of your input is just a firmly held belief that doesn't necessarily have a basis in objective fact.

If you are going to claim someone else _must_ agree with your point of view you need some objective basis to assert that. The difference between you and I is I'm not trying to prove you're wrong, I'm trying to tell you that you shouldn't be trying to prove that I'm wrong because you simply don't have the data available to prove anything.

That doesn't mean I think you're wrong for thinking that a T should never be handled. I really like my T I think it's the coolest thing ever and I'd never want to cause it harm. However, I think it's completely reasonable to handle it under close supervision. I shouldn't be vilified for sharing that point of view.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

I came here to share my opinion and advice as a parent for the benefit of other parents, and to push back against the elitist condescension that you and the other 4 clowns in the circus like to browbeat people with.

Muahahahahahahah this is one of the best thing I've read today!

 

[greenbb]

and of course the victim card comes flying out. Typical.

You're calling me out with "victim" card because I pointed out that people here using the word like, "ignorant" and "idiot" to dismiss me? Seriously, you're just going to hand-wave away that type of thing as perfectly justified and acceptable?

@greenbb You seem to forget just how quick you were to shoot down everyone else's responses. Most coming from experienced keepers, unlike yourself. You even go as far as saying "don't listen to anyone here". Yet you then complain that no one will hear you out...and of course the victim card comes flying out. Typical.

Next up you say that were all in the wrong regarding the risks that come with handling. All based on your anecdote, that you handled with your kids and nothing went wrong.

Yet you then immediately dismiss any anecdotal evidence that was provided to refute your experience. Can you not see the pattern here?

Your are clearly deluded. Wake up man.

This is the crux of the issue: you don't like that I dismissed your evidence as anecdotal. Why is that a prerequisite for us to get along? I personally don't find the presented anecdotes as all that compelling and I think the situation can be carefully controlled and the risks minimized. I don't have to agree with your point of view, that doesn't make either of us "wrong".

@greenbbYou even go as far as saying "don't listen to anyone here".

You are right I did say that. I meant that as a rebuke towards the sarcasm and just generally rude responses that the original poster received. I think that was really lame of the community here to shut down the poster. My reply was specifically to the original poster. I felt compelled to share my point of view and the need to push back against the avalanche of people sharing their opinions like it must be the law and anyone who thinks otherwise is stupid.

 

[Swoop]

I can quote you as 'not coming here to fight,' page 10, and 'wanting to get in people's faces,' page 4. You are contradicting yourself.

You're talking about "closely supervising" a human who at her age hasn't even fully-developed self-awareness, won't remember the experience, and you're treating the tarantula as if it were inanimate. Bad enough in itself, but you're also encouraging someone with no experience to do the same. And, you don't seem to understand the difference between handling it yourself and handling it indirectly by 'supervising.'

The reason you're getting pushback, and we've quoted you on this a few times now, is the life and health of your tarantula comes secondary to what you want to do with them.

 

[greenbb]

I can quote you as 'not coming here to fight,' page 10, and 'wanting to get in people's faces,' page 4. You are contradicting yourself.

You're talking about "closely supervising" a human who at her age hasn't even fully-developed self-awareness, won't remember the experience, and you're treating the tarantula as if it were inanimate. Bad enough in itself, but you're also encouraging someone with no experience to do the same. And, you don't seem to understand the difference between handling it yourself and handling it indirectly by 'supervising.'

The reason you're getting pushback, and we've quoted you on this a few times now, is the life and health of your tarantula comes secondary to what you want to do with them.

I completely understand your reasons for not agreeing with what I am doing. Again, I simply don't agree with your assessment. I can live with that.

And I don't think I'm contradicting myself, I don't equate starting a fight with confronting someone about their behavior. I expected people to respond more maturely but that was probably stupid of me.

 

[Swoop]

Guess I'll keep poking the bear.

You got in people's faces about how you act irresponsibly and are dissatisfied with the maturity of the responses. Shocking

 

[Nightshady]

Nightshady, you're an awesome guy, but we are in disagreement here.

First, this really isn't so much about demonizing that guy. Please re-read some of his posts (or at least the parts people are quoting). It's fine to have a different opinion. However, he was rude from the start, labeling the people who previously offered the OP as being part of a cult (name-calling). He also has elements of someone who is here to stir things up. This thread was dead for about *two weeks*. I bet the OP already bought her pet (or at least made a decision). So a brand new account owner comes on to call the majority of people previously offering advice names? Then he goes on to say he lets his preschool kids handle? Hmmmm...

On top of that, there are safety issues. I respect you let your teenage son handle his pet and that you taught him how to do it safely, but a 13 year old is not the same as a preschooler.

I am not anti-handling. I don't do it myself, but I don't agree it's always bad if the owner is careful and takes their animal's personality into consideration. If an animal comes out onto one's hand without being heavily poked and prodded and does not show signs of stress then it is not afraid. Many Ts don't want to be handled, but there are always exceptions to rules and these animals (be as simple as they are) appear to have a lot of variations of personalities even within a species. If someone is being respectful to their pet, knows how to read its body language, and taking safety precautions? Good for them.

But it is concerning to involve very small children in that directly and act like it's no a big deal. I find it interesting that for all we've heard of this person talking about how much he and his very small children handle, he barely touches how he does it *safely* for either his children or his pets.

If a T is in a 3 YO's hand I don't buy for a second there is enough distance for the T not to hair that child in the face (unless you have a freakishly big 3 YO or your child has arms of a chimp). I don't buy for a second you can keep a preschooler from putting his or her face close to the T. I can barely keep my calm 8 year old from putting her face close to a T when I have the lid open—and she is a mellow child for her age.

Then having taught some classes with differently aged children and known a number of my kid's friends since they were babies, I've seen that even wonderfully mellow, thoughtful preschoolers have unpredictable impulse control. They all have "crazy little kid moments" where they just can't control their little bodies and do something unpredictable. It's normal for that age. Kids are pretty much like that until they are about 10ish. That—along with the small size of a preschooler and their delicate skin—does not make for safe T handling—even with a parent being close and careful.

And while the risk is low if you have a mellow child and mellow T, if an accident does happen—especially if it involves injury on the small child's part—it could be very serious. While the NW species have low toxin venom, there's still no guarantee that someone won't have an allergic reaction. The ultricating hairs sound even more confusing to deal with—especially if they get into a child's eyes (that boy was in and out of the hospital for over a year!).

Why are some of us so upset about that when it's someone else's choice to risk? Because stupid things like that can impact animal ownership. If enough incidents come out in the media, Ts can and will become banned. That risks folks' ability to add to their collection and it even risks ownership if your pets get confiscated.

Look at pitbulls? While they have a high prey drive if they are not well-socialized as small pups, they were bred to be gentle with humans. Petey from the Little Rascals was a pitbull. They used to be a staple family dog back then the same way Golden Retrievers are this day. That's because they are bred to be human-friendly. You want a dog who fights to be gentle with humans so you can pull it out of the ring without getting your arm chewed off. The thing is pits now have a reputation for being scary, and there are loads of people who misunderstand them—believing they are born wanting to chew off people's faces.

What happens from that? A couple pit owners do not keep/raise their dogs safely, and a couple people (or pets) get hurt. Then the media latches on more and more, and the whole breed gets banned in cities and even countries. People's beloved pets are removed and euthanized because of public ignorance and a few owners who disregard safety.

That could very easily happen with tarantulas. Spiders—especially large hairy ones—are much more terrifying to the majority of the human population than a dog. I think the fear of spiders is even natural unless someone has been desensitized when they were young.

So the question, my friend, is do you want someone's cavalier attitude (or a newbie following someone else's cavalier advice) to put owning our pets at risk?

I have loads of respect for owners who care about their animals—be they handlers or not. I don't for people who are rude to people who think differently than them and choose to treat animals like toys—especially when these animals are already misunderstood to begin with.

1) I appreciate the compliment, thank you!

2) it’s OK to respectfully disagree.

For the record, I’m not defending or even commenting on how greenbb presented his position (ie., was it rude), or the fact that it seemed trolling to some bc he made an account to state his position. I just think he made some valid points to which I agree, and likewise some people (including yourself) on the other side of the issue made some good points with which I also agree.

The one point he did make that I think is most notable is the fact that some people (right or wrong) are going to handle T’s. If people here really have the best interest of the T’s at heart, if someone is asking about handling T’s, they should be educated on the manner to do that in the safest way for both the handler and the T. Some people here would just slam the person mentioning handling the T’s, and most likely the person is going to do it anyway. In that situation, I think it’s best to tell them you are against handling, but at least give them some tips on how to do it as safely as possible.

Yes, handling T’s will always present some risk to handler and animal, however we both know that if done properly you really can cut that risk to an absolute minimum.

Just my 2 cents. Thanks for the well articulated and thoughtful reply.

 

[Nightshady]

I very much enjoy handling my T's for thier pictures. I Try to do so about a week after they molt to get best colors. Some of them can be real fiesty. I would probably let a child hold my G. Pulchripes under close adult supervision but none of the others.

Although I have zero interest in handling, I too would love to have just a single pic of my T’s someday sitting on my hand or arm. Since I don’t handle, I probably won’t do it because I wouldn’t feel comfortable, but I understand why you do it.

 

[greenbb]

Guess I'll keep poking the bear.

You got in people's faces about how you act irresponsibly and are dissatisfied with the maturity of the responses. Shocking

I do not act irresponsibly.

 

[Nightshady]

Yeah of course he is... I fail to realize why people here (except me) didn't spotted Richard Dean 'MacGyver' Anderson disguised as a user from Texas

I find this so funny bc when I was a kid, MacGyver was like a hero to me.

“Dad! Did you see how MacGyver disarmed that bomb with some chewing gum and a Chinese road map? He is so awesome!!”

 

[Swoop]

I do not act irresponsibly.

I appreciate that you've abandoned all pretense of defending your position and are resorting to pure, unsupported, contradictory statements.

 

[Nightshady]

Bad enough in itself, but you're also encouraging someone with no experience to do the same.

This is definitely one point on which I agree with you. Although I have made it clear that I agree with greenbb that it’s not ludicrous to allow a child to hold a T under tight supervision, I firmly believe that the supervisor be very experienced themselves.

 

[greenbb]

I appreciate that you've abandoned all pretense of defending your position and are resorting to pure, unsupported, contradictory statements.

Haha I am? It's hard to have a contradictory statement when there's only one statement unless you're saying the statement disagrees with itself. Feel free to get back in your little clown car and drive back to the circus with your friends.