Freezing a Tarantula to end it's pain - is that a good idea?

[Fran]

I wouldnt squeeze them. Thats barbarian in my opinion.

 

[Edd Eskimo]

Sorry Fran but people are barbaric..We will never change..

 

[Ictinike]

Freezing animals is not a painless, nice way to go. Blood and hemolymph will both freeze prior to the loss of concenous and is painful and it is painful prior to the slipping away. Smashing a T is similar to the captive bolt or gun shot that is approved by the AVMA (American Veterinary Medical Association) as a humain, instaneous, humane form of euthanasia. The other option is to cough up a little bit of money and take them to your local exotic's veterinarian for humane euthanasia with anasthetic gas and IV (and in inverts intracoelemic) euthanasia. Would you kill you kitten in the freezer or a hammer to the head?

Again you applying your own HUMAN feelings and reactions to this scenario more so going as far as relating it to a kitten?

Sure being a vertebrate that's not the way to go but honestly many people have been stuck in mountain tops and when recounting the experience, after several live saving surgeries to remove frozen dead extremities, they didn't feel much but more like slipping into unconsciousness and very little pain.

Our HUMAN bodies have a way of, in cases of freezing, shutting down the blood flow to your extremities in a plan to keep the `core` from dying. Blood flow slows to these outer reaches of our bodies and more opting to stay in the chest area to protect the heart and keep it beating. Our breath, as well mental clarity and reasoning, becomes slowed and shallow to also `slow` the dying process.

If it were me I would rather freeze than burn, suffocate, squashed on the road.

 

[Edd Eskimo]

If it were me I would rather freeze than burn, suffocate, squashed on the road.

Really...You would rather freeze to death than rather going out in one quick blow...

 

[Ictinike]

Really...You would rather freeze to death than rather going out in one quick blow...

And how do you, as a living being, know `one quick blow` isn't painless?

I'm just saying. Everyone always states and assumes these quick blow scenarios are painless. What if they are not?

I know for certain those who've survived a freezing can state it's like going to sleep and you don't feel much or experience much mentally.

I cannot say I've heard any 1 on 1 accounts of someone taking a bullet to the head thinking it was painless.

You get my point

 

[BlackCat]

I would not be able to just step on one of my T's. I agree with Fran, too barbaric and messy.

Freezing to death, for us, is torture because not only do we have extremities losing circulation, our muscles contract and shiver to generate body heat. That is where the real pain comes from, and tarantulas don't do that.

Good point Ictinike. How do we even know it is an instant death when there are a lot of cases of people surviving a GSW to the head.

 

[Edd Eskimo]

LOLz..Yeah I get your point and all..But I guarantee you that freezing to death is far worst..What I was taught is that if one is shot in any region on the T box area on the human body (Eyes and nose) instantly renders the human brain and body useless and causes a quick and painless death because of the rupturing of the medulla oblongata...I believe they would only feel pain that first few seconds but after that it would end...Even thou their body's may react to the nerves, the body can't interpret it as pain due to the fact that the brain is now useless.

 

[CuddlesTheTarantula]

I think people are more comfortable with the freezing because it's not as graphic/violent as stepping on them. We're talking about beloved pets, they aren't just "bugs". Would you rather step on a beloved pet that doesn't have the option of traditional veterinarian euthanasia or let it depart this world by being frozen? I think the freezing method makes "us" feel better about it. That's not to say that it's better/worse than the alternative, just the one that we as compassionate caring humans feel better about when faced with such a horrible decision.

 

[Ictinike]

LOLz..Yeah I get your point and all..But I guarantee you that freezing to death is far worst..What I was taught is that if one is shot in any region on the T box area on the human body (Eyes and nose) instantly renders the human brain and body useless and causes a quick and painless death because of the rupturing of the medulla oblongata...I believe they would only feel pain that first few seconds but after that it would end...Even thou their body's may react to the nerves, the body can't interpret it as pain due to the fact that the brain is now useless.

Oh I get ya, trust me I do, but freezing is similar. Sure it's much, much more slower but our bodies defense systems kick in and I'm sure you don't feel much pain as our brain shuts down those portions of the body that freeze first from feeling the pain.

Think of it this way too. Going outside on a normal winter day without gloves etc. Your hands will slowly get cold to the point where you know they are cold and they don't function as well but its not really `painful`.

NOW go inside and run those under some normal temp tap water and feel the `needles` as those nerves get awakened by the increase in temperature. I've only really said `ouch` when my hands/feet start to warm up from being in the cold, not when I was getting them cold.

I get ya though but I honestly think freezing is, aside from using CO2, may be the best humane way to end a spider. Again, a lot is not known about this so it's really anyone's guess. I'm also applying `human` feelings to the freezing process as well so I'm just as wrong as everyone

 

[Nomadinexile]

I think the freezing method makes "us" feel better about it.

That's the point. People freeze to save themselves from the gore. Not save the tarantula from pain or their version of it. It's not humane for them, it's humane to us. But that's not the point is it?

 

[jayefbe]

Blood and hemolymph will both freeze prior to the loss of concenous and is painful and it is painful prior to the slipping away.

Hahaha!! Really? Animals remain conscious even when their blood (or hemolymph) has frozen? Really? Uh, I really don't think so.

I think freezing to death could be relatively painful for a vertebrate. A cold-blooded invertebrate? Probably not. There are occurrences of inverts entering a torpid, hibernation-like state when temperature fall below a certain level. Their nervous system is very much unlike ours. I'd be surprised if they feel pain upon cold temperatures in the same way that warm-blooded mammals do. I personally feel that freezing inverts is a humane method of euthanasia.

 

[Fran]

That's the point. People freeze to save themselves from the gore. Not save the tarantula from pain or their version of it. It's not humane for them, it's humane to us. But that's not the point is it?

Well.

Being rational and honest; Spiders are not the same as dogs.:The fact that you are saving the spider from a a "painful" nematode infestation slow death, or from a really bad fall, its quite humane enough.


To the spider, quite frankly, it will be pretty much the same to die frozen or smashed. It doesnt have the capacity to have pitty for itself, or to think how horribly painfull is its death.

So from that poing of view, the next step is to make it less painfull for you.
To freeze her is way less horrid than to smash it.
Not to menction the guts all over the place. Way more brutal.

 

[zonbonzovi]

Freezing a tarantula that is close to death is actually quite fast. I recently froze an Aphonopelma so that it could be sent to one of the researchers working on taxonomy for this genus. The MM tarantula could no longer "walk without stumbling" and had long since stopped eating. 15 minutes after placing the T at the rear of the freezer, it was very stiff. Not frozen through, mind you, but most certainly dead. There will be, as has already been stated, a wide spectrum of opinions on whether this is appropriate. I say it really depends: some folks will find this abhorrent as they couldn't possibly freeze their "pet". I understand this feeling completely, yet I also realize that a well preserved tarantula gives one an opportunity to study its' physiology up close. This is often impossible while the creature is still living(try inspecting a healthy Haplopelma). Just don't forget to take notes

 

[Carrot]

Do tarantulas even have the capacity to suffer or feel pain?

While I haven't had a tarantula die from anything other than old age yet (mature males), I'd rather let mine continue to live and give it a chance, no matter how small, to recover from whatever problem it has rather than sticking it in the freezer. Just seems kind of pointless to me unless you're wanting to preserve its body or kill it faster so you can use the cage its in or something.

Though if they can feel pain then it'd make sense to me.

 

[Derek P]

Again you applying your own HUMAN feelings and reactions to this scenario more so going as far as relating it to a kitten?....Our HUMAN bodies have a way of, in cases of freezing, shutting down the blood flow to your extremities in a plan to keep the `core` from dying. Blood flow slows to these outer reaches of our bodies and more opting to stay in the chest area to protect the heart and keep it beating. Our breath, as well mental clarity and reasoning, becomes slowed and shallow to also `slow` the dying process.....

Not applying human feelings.... applying the reasoning that invertebrates respond to noxious stimuli in a similar response to mammals. Granted I'm making the assumption that this response is 'pain.'

Also the human, and all vertebrates, have a closed circulatory system that allows peripheral vasoconstriction to keep the core alive. Inverts have an open vascular system so this reflex cannot happen. This is not going to cause cerebral hypoxia to 'slow down' mental clarity and reasoning.

Yes blood freezes in the animal prior to death. I'm not saying the entire circulatory system freezes solid, but the microvascualr system and tissues form ice crystals prior to death. There is no reason to believe that hemolymph would not start to crystalize in the extremities prior to death. If Ts can respond to noxious stimuli felt by their feet (ie Grammastola's that stay on the wall of an enclosure b/c they do not 'like' the substrate) why wouldn't they be able to feel this slow freeze process.

Either way, smash or freeze, there is still the option for euthanasia by an exotics veterinarian. The T can be rendered unconscious and pain free followed by an injection of euthanasia. Painless, clean, and humane.

 

[MizM]

IMHO, Co2 is a better alternative:

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=172350&highlight=euthanize

 

[Stopdroproll]

Liquid nitrogen would certainly be a quick death. You can freeze a ball in liquid nitrogen in seconds. Not that it is easy to get access to liquid nitrogen or anything., but it would be quick.

 

[Mack&Cass]

IMHO, Co2 is a better alternative:

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=172350&highlight=euthanize

C02 would do a good job of rendering the T unconscious, however, as stated in that thread, it wouldn't do a good job of killing the T as it would take forever. We use C02 to kill our mice for our snakes, and it takes about 10 minutes for it to kill them completely. Tarantulas breathe so passively, that it would take a really long time to actually kill the tarantula. In that thread, it was suggested to use C02 on the T and then put it in the freezer, however, not everyone has access to C02, and if you have it on hand - then go ahead and use that first, but a lot of people don't have C02 readily available. You can make it, but you'd be making a lot.

Of course it would be quick just to drop a brick on a T or whatever, but personally, if it was hard for me to close the freezer door on our P. ornata sling, I don't imagine it being very easy to squish it with something. The question here isn't really which is more humane, it's what do we feel less crappy for doing. Killing any animal voluntarily is a really hard thing to do, no matter how sick they are.

Cass

 

[MizM]

I'm a wimp. I can't even kill a rat to feed my boas. If they don't have frozen, I make the pet store kill 'em for me!!!

I regularly let my old male Ts get eaten by the female when they start showing signs of impending death of old age. I feel that is the quickest and most natural way. In 19 years of keeping, I have never euthanized a female, and never will. I always have a teeny little spark of hope that they will make it and just keep trying 'till the end. And from time to time, one will pull through a difficult time and I'm glad I didn't "pull the plug".

 

[Mack&Cass]

I'm a wimp. I can't even kill a rat to feed my boas. If they don't have frozen, I make the pet store kill 'em for me!!!

I regularly let my old male Ts get eaten by the female when they start showing signs of impending death of old age. I feel that is the quickest and most natural way. In 19 years of keeping, I have never euthanized a female, and never will. I always have a teeny little spark of hope that they will make it and just keep trying 'till the end. And from time to time, one will pull through a difficult time and I'm glad I didn't "pull the plug".

I hear ya on that one. We do both ways of accepted euthanasia in Canada: cervical dislocation and CO2. We (and by we, I mean Mackenzie) only do cervical dislocation when we're only killing one or two mice. If we're killing a lot, we'll use the gas chamber (which is really just a rubbermaid tub with a CO2 tank attached). I have no problem putting them in the 'chamber', however, I can't even watch Mackenzie do cervical dislocation, let alone do it myself.

I think that's the difference too, one way (gassing) you're kind of indirectly killing them, and the other way (cervical dislocation) you're actually doing the physical act of killing them. Not everyone is cut out for that. Luckily, Mackenzie is, or I'd be breaking out the gas chamber even if I only needed to kill one mouse.

It's the same with Ts, we can't really say which way is more humane, but putting them in the freezer would be the indirect way, and stepping on them would be the direct physical way. Like I said, it all boils down to which way makes you feel less crappy for having to end their life.

Cass