Forming groups per state para pokies

[MintyWood826]

I just don't understand WHY. What is the point of no interstate Poecilotheria sales? What does it accomplish? Besides being confusing and terrible.

So you can't sell to a resident of another state even in person, but you can transport them if it's not commerce, but you can't sell interstate, but you can give them away for free, but .

 

[Gaherp]

This stems from the use of a law we made in 1900. This law should be revised since some of the tarantulas that are being ponied onto this fiasco are so far separated from the original wild stock(smuggled or imported) it is ridiculous to think they would prosecute over them. Captive breeding in most of these cases has made it possible that any reliance on wild specimens is not needed. Honestly, I do not even believe any pokies available in the US right now are no less then twenty plus generations from F1. I could be wrong and someone could be brown boxing some from Asia or Europe to get more bloodlines. I hope that is not the case because I do like to think that all of us as hobbyist/breeders are getting to a point where we can supply other folks in the hobby with spiderlings. I think short of importing new species and localities to seed the hobby we should lighten are need for imports, definitely on species bred for several years in the hobby.

 

[Ungoliant]

Really great idea..... But can't we still buy from expos or no??????

The Endangered Species Act does not prohibit transactions that occur entirely within one state (I would not drive to another state), but you would still need to check your state's laws, as many states have additional protections for protected species.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

I just don't understand WHY. What is the point of no interstate Poecilotheria sales? What does it accomplish? Besides being confusing and terrible.

So you can't sell to a resident of another state in person, but you can transport them if it's not commerce, but you can't sell interstate, but you can give them away for free, but .

Well, we can discuss about this for a lustrum, but definitely one thing is easy to understand and certain: you can't (starting from said date) anymore sell those.

But watch the half full part of the Bourbon glass and rejoice, oh Americans: for that free 'pokies' 4everyone, starting from September

ih ih ih

 

[Nightstalker47]

Nah, there are many other absurd regulations. Example: When I was on the SWAT Team I went to a gun shop to buy a new pistol to carry off-duty. I knew the regulation, but the store owner was bound to advise me of the three day waiting period before I could take possession of the pistol. I was carrying two pistols on my person, had an M-16 rifle, a HK sub machine gun, a Benelli semi-auto shotgun, and a pump action shotgun in my car. REALLY???!!!

Jesus man, thats a lot of firepower...and you still needed another pistol lol.

Americans.

 

[FrDoc]

Jesus man, thats a lot of firepower...and you still needed another pistol lol.

Americans.

In that line of work those items are as different as rakes, shovels, and hammers. Yeah, they’re all tools but it’s really hard to drive a nail with a rake. Plus, there are different hobbies than keeping T’s, and just like keeping T’s, once you start collecting, there’s always a reason to get another one.

 

[viper69]

From the Gov't FAQ on these Ts, regarding selling

"While the ESA does not prohibit intrastate sale (sale within a state to someone residing in the same state)
of an endangered species, it does prohibit interstate (between states) commercial sale of endangered
species, unless a buyer can demonstrate that such sales enhance the propagation or survival of the species,
or is for scientific research."

 

[cold blood]

From the Gov't FAQ on these Ts, regarding selling

"While the ESA does not prohibit intrastate sale (sale within a state to someone residing in the same state)
of an endangered species, it does prohibit interstate (between states) commercial sale of endangered
species, unless a buyer can demonstrate that such sales enhance the propagation or survival of the species,
or is for scientific research."

So i could sell to another state as long as the buyer is a breeder or intends to breed the ts in question? Sure sounds like it...demonstrating this could be tricky i guess.

 

[lostbrane]

From what I understand, that doesn't seem to be the case. It would still be an interstate sale, regardless of demonstration of the propagation of the species. It's within the hobby, and the USFWS is not recognizing the hobby as a viable resource at this time. CBWs don't cover commercial stuff. But, if you and the buyer both have CBWs as part of a conservation effort, then it would be ok.

Breeding loans however are completely a ok. At least, per the FAQ the USFWS posted.

 

[viper69]

So i could sell to another state as long as the buyer is a breeder or intends to breed the ts in question? Sure sounds like it...demonstrating this could be tricky i guess.

Breeding for the purposes of maintaining the hobby let's say, are not allowed. However if said buyer was breeding to repopulate the wild populations that's OK in essence. However the person buying would need the necessary paperwork demonstrating they taking part in some conservation efforts.

But, if you and the buyer both have CBWs as part of a conservation effort, then it would be ok.

yep.

 

[cold blood]

Breeding for the purposes of maintaining the hobby let's say, are not allowed.

They did specify that the rules were not intended to prohibit breeding or limit the numbers of these species within the hobby.

 

[viper69]

They did specify that the rules were not intended to prohibit breeding or limit the numbers of these species within the hobby.

Understood, but we are talking about who one can sell to, and the reasons for selling. You can't sell across state lines to Joe Schmoe if Joe wants a pet.

 

[cold blood]

Understood, but we are talking about who one can sell to, and the reasons for selling. You can't sell across state lines to Joe Schmoe if Joe wants a pet.

i was specifically talking of selling to breeders or for the purpose of breeding...not some randon Schmoe.

Proving breeding intentions would be the hard part....i may 100% intend to breed, but how can i prove these intentions?

 

[viper69]

i was specifically talking of selling to breeders or for the purpose of breeding...not some randon Schmoe.

Proving breeding intentions would be the hard part....i may 100% intend to breed, but how can i prove these intentions?

Ah I see now. If sold for the purpose of breeding, then based on what I read, it seems the person would need a CBW. At least that's how I understood the law.

Of course how does one prove intent/purpose of breeding--- I don't know the details. I didn't look up the info regarding the exceptions where sales would be allowed.

 

[lostbrane]

Here's the fact sheet for CBW: https://www.fws.gov/international/pdf/factsheet-captive-bred-wildlife-and-endangered-species-act.pdf

It still seems to me that a CBW would not be enough and may not even be granted because of how the USFWS views captive bred Poecilotheria at this time. Their statement regarding the 5 species seemed pretty clear that those already in the states, except maybe the ones at zoos, were not going to be considered viable for a conservation effort. If that is indeed the case, then even having a CBW would probably not cover you, and therefore the selling to a breeder would be an interstate sale and said sale would be an ESA violation. I could be completely wrong. I think since these situations were not discussed in the FAQ, that there are still many questions and too much interpretation allowed. With what we have available, I think loaning one of these tarantulas to someone, and then the slings being a gift back to you would be a workaround, but that might not mesh well with what the USFWS wants to do...

I was already going to try calling Don Morgan sometime this week. If I get a hold of him, or any information, I'll try to get this answered so we all have a clear cut understanding of how this situation will play out. Unless that's not a good idea, in which case, I won't haha.

 

[viper69]

Here's the fact sheet for CBW: https://www.fws.gov/international/pdf/factsheet-captive-bred-wildlife-and-endangered-species-act.pdf

It still seems to me that a CBW would not be enough and may not even be granted because of how the USFWS views captive bred Poecilotheria at this time. Their statement regarding the 5 species seemed pretty clear that those already in the states, except maybe the ones at zoos, were not going to be considered viable for a conservation effort. If that is indeed the case, then even having a CBW would probably not cover you, and therefore the selling to a breeder would be an interstate sale and said sale would be an ESA violation. I could be completely wrong. I think since these situations were not discussed in the FAQ, that there are still many questions and too much interpretation allowed. With what we have available, I think loaning one of these tarantulas to someone, and then the slings being a gift back to you would be a workaround, but that might not mesh well with what the USFWS wants to do...

I was already going to try calling Don Morgan sometime this week. If I get a hold of him, or any information, I'll try to get this answered so we all have a clear cut understanding of how this situation will play out. Unless that's not a good idea, in which case, I won't haha.

That's how I understood it to be basically. I'll be curious if you learn any new info. I'm sure other members of this genus will be listed soon.

 

[lostbrane]

Funny you mention that. I did not know but have since confirmed that the 6 other listed species are still in the queue, just a decision has not been made yet. The original reason I was going to call was to see if there was any information as to when they might be coming around to a decision on the Indian species.

 

[viper69]

Funny you mention that. I did not know but have since confirmed that the 6 other listed species are still in the queue, just a decision has not been made yet. The original reason I was going to call was to see if there was any information as to when they might be coming around to a decision on the Indian species.

I can't imagine they won't all be put under ESA. The part I don't understand is why are sales w/in a state fine, but across statelines is a no go...

 

[Ungoliant]

So i could sell to another state as long as the buyer is a breeder or intends to breed the ts in question? Sure sounds like it...demonstrating this could be tricky i guess.

They did specify that the rules were not intended to prohibit breeding or limit the numbers of these species within the hobby.

If you're selling to another hobbyist across state lines, that's almost certainly not going to fly, even if the hobbyist intends to breed the specimen. (They don't really care about enabling hobby breeding programs, as our pets are considered unsuitable for conservation due to possible hybridization, inbreeding, and lack of records on their bloodlines.)

We just have to accept the reality that for most purposes (excepting intrastate transactions in states that don't prohibit it), these five species are effectively being phased out of the pet trade in the United States.

The part I don't understand is why are sales w/in a state fine, but across statelines is a no go...

It's a jurisdictional issue. This is a federal agency acting pursuant to a federal statute. Congress cannot exercise powers except those enumerated in Article I of the Constitution. As it often does, Congress relied on a very generous interpretation of the Commerce Clause when it drafted the Endangered Species Act.

The Commerce Clause primarily concerns interstate commerce. For now, the Supreme Court still respects some limits on the ability to exploit the Commerce Clause to regulate purely intrastate commerce.

Even if federal law doesn't prohibit possession or intrastate trade, many states have laws protecting these species. If you own or would like to own any protected species, you should check your state's laws to make sure it's permitted.

 

[cold blood]

If you're selling to another hobbyist across state lines, that's almost certainly not going to fly, even if the hobbyist intends to breed the specimen. (They don't really care about enabling hobby breeding programs, as our pets are considered unsuitable for conservation due to possible hybridization, inbreeding, and lack of records on their bloodlines.)

But my point is that they specified that they didnt want to hamper captive breeding of these species or the captive population. To me this would mean we would have at least some freedom/leeway that would provide for this. With absolutely no interstate movement, it could ONLY serve to severely disrupt both captive breeding, and eventual populations of these species within the hobby.