Flesh Eating Bacteria on Tarantulas

Garrick

Arachnobaron
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It came to my attention this morning that Mr. Rick West, an often cited arachnologist, allegedly declared that theraphosidae are carriers of "flesh-eating bacteria" (S. aureus) in a legal statement that served as evidence in a court case.

I couldn't care less about the business aspects of the thread I read, but I'm dismayed by some manipulation of a fact presented in Mr. West's statement.

While theraphosids sometimes do have Staphylococcus aureus present on them, so does a good chunk of the human population, even in developed countries. Nearly half of all uncooked meat and poultry in the US does as well. Dogs and cats also carry S. aureus (some even have been infected with MRSA).
In short, it's everywhere, and infection is easily prevented.

It seemed the gist of Mr. West's assertion, based on other items he presented in the same paragraph, was constructed to deem theraphosid spiders as dangerous and perhaps unsuitable as pets. Unfortunately, he chose to use sweeping, hysterical rationale.

Wash your hands, cook food well, take daily showers, and don't French kiss your bugs.
 

Kirk

Arachnodemon
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One might ask themselves if the motivation for Mr. West's statement wasn't to impugn the tarantula hobby for the purpose of ending imports/exports.
 

Garrick

Arachnobaron
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Maybe, maybe not. Sometimes I'd agree with such a motive. Anyway, I definitely didn't mean to take a guess at why he wrote what he did.

I just wanted to point out that there's no need for folks to get in a tizzy.
Oh, and that PROPER HAND WASHING IS IMPORTANT, whether you're around tarantulas or not :razz:.
 

Kirk

Arachnodemon
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Maybe, maybe not. Sometimes I'd agree with such a motive. Anyway, I definitely didn't mean to take a guess at why he wrote what he did.

I just wanted to point out that there's no need for folks to get in a tizzy.
Oh, and that PROPER HAND WASHING IS IMPORTANT, whether you're around tarantulas or not :razz:.
I don't disagree with anything you've said. But, for an individual of Mr. West's stature to limit his reference of bacterial infection to just tarantulas, to the exclusion of qualifying remarks of the caliber you provided in your first post, I have to contemplate that Mr. West has ulterior motives.
 

Bill S

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There was a paper posted (either on this forum or on the ATS forum) about some research that showed that bacteria, including some pathogens, were found in the oral cavities of several species of tarantulas. From this was extrapolated the rather far-fetched suggestion that the bite of a tarantula could infect someone with these bacteria. But there are some obvious problems with this assumption. First, tarantulas do not bite with their oral cavities, and the fangs (which remain well outside of the oral cavities) were not tested in the study. Second, the same bacteria are found in a wide variety of places that humans more typically come in contact with. Not all bacteria that have a pathogenic potential are pathogenic in all contexts. Some that are normal skin flora in people can become highly pathogenic in particular situations and circumstances. Third, transfer of pathogenic bacteria between people and tarantulas has not been demonstrated. There are no cases (that I've ever heard of) of it ever happening. Anyone publicizing the idea that the bite of a tarantula can cause infection by flesh-eating bacteria is being imaginative but naive at best, and more likely irresponsible and even dishonest.
 

Quazgar

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I don't know about the study that found the bacteria, but the way I read what West said was that he was listing the potential dangers but not necessarily qualifying how likely any of the dangers were. My interpretation of it was that it was possible for the bacteria to be present, and if present than it was possible for the bacteria to cause the disease. To me, stacking these possibilities leads to a very low probability, but I could see how people could take this potential and exaggerate the risk.
 

Bill S

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I don't know about the study that found the bacteria, but the way I read what West said was that he was listing the potential dangers but not necessarily qualifying how likely any of the dangers were. My interpretation of it was that it was possible for the bacteria to be present, and if present than it was possible for the bacteria to cause the disease. To me, stacking these possibilities leads to a very low probability, but I could see how people could take this potential and exaggerate the risk.
That's about like saying that it's possible for a paper cut to get infected, therefore paper is dangerous and can transmit flesh-eating bacteria. Making such a charge is foolish, and one would have to wonder at the real reasons behind it. If someone known for opposing the sale of paper made a courtroom statement to that effect, I'd suspect dishonesty to serve a personal agenda.
 

Formerphobe

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I haven't read the report/statement to know exactly what he said and the context it was presented. It is common for lawyers to direct the court to focus on one aspect of a statement or discussion making it sound totally different than what was intended. i.e. -
actual statement: Tarantulas attack and kill their prey.
Lawyer: "So, you're saying that tarantulas attack and kill..."

I could see how people could take this potential and exaggerate the risk.
+1
 

Quazgar

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That's about like saying that it's possible for a paper cut to get infected, therefore paper is dangerous and can transmit flesh-eating bacteria. Making such a charge is foolish, and one would have to wonder at the real reasons behind it. If someone known for opposing the sale of paper made a courtroom statement to that effect, I'd suspect dishonesty to serve a personal agenda.
I guess what I'd be interested in knowing is if anybody has ever been recorded as having been infected in this way. If there has been even a case or two of it happening, then that would seem legitimate to include. If only one person doing one study happened to find these bacteria and made this long shot connection that this could happen, then I agree that it seems bizarre that it would be brought up. What kind of personal agenda do you suspect West of having?
 

Moltar

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Regarding the infection: If there is a possibility of this (seems reasonable to me) Rick, being under oath, was legally bound to include it, assuming the question was something along the lines of "state the dangers of importing tarantulas".

As for the personal motive question; we should all keep in mind that Rick is a dedicated conservationalist, NOT a hobbyist. Although we share a love for the same animals, his goals are quite different from most of ours. I'm fairly certain Rick would love to see a day when ALL wild collecting was completely halted worldwide.

Now, if he tweaked his response in that court case to advance his personal goals over the needs of the court , I'd consider that unethical and possibly criminal. I'm not here to make accusations like that.

I believe the gist of his statement about dangerous bacteria is because these animals live in the dirt, manipulate everything in their environment with their mouthparts and eat dirty insects. Of course a bite from those dirty fangs has the potential to transfer nasty bacteria. So does a non-venomous snakebite, cat scratches, lizard scratches, chicken beak wounds and so on.
 

PhobeToPhile

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I believe the gist of his statement about dangerous bacteria is because these animals live in the dirt, manipulate everything in their environment with their mouthparts and eat dirty insects. Of course a bite from those dirty fangs has the potential to transfer nasty bacteria. So does a non-venomous snakebite, cat scratches, lizard scratches, chicken beak wounds and so on.
+1 to this. I have a pet duck, and he is NOT the cleanliest animal out there. If I had to make a statement regarding whether a bite from him which broke the skin carried the risk of infection, I could say nothing but "Yes, there is a chance that the bite could become infected".
 

Kirk

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Regarding the infection: If there is a possibility of this (seems reasonable to me) Rick, being under oath, was legally bound to include it, assuming the question was something along the lines of "state the dangers of importing tarantulas".
Mr. West's "Delaration of Rick C. West" is a written, signed statement. It's neither a transcript of responses during a deposition nor transcript of responses during cross examination by an attorney in court. As a declaration, Mr. West had the opportunity to place into proper context any risks of bacterial infection due to bites. The motivation for his overtly limiting the scope of his statement, given his references to conservation, smuggling, and captive breeding would appear rather apparent.
 

Moltar

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Mr. West's "Delaration of Rick C. West" is a written, signed statement. It's neither a transcript of responses during a deposition nor transcript of responses during cross examination by an attorney in court. As a declaration, Mr. West had the opportunity to place into proper context any risks of bacterial infection due to bites. The motivation for his overtly limiting the scope of his statement, given his references to conservation, smuggling, and captive breeding would appear rather apparent.
Yes, I take your point. I like to give people the benefit of doubt when possible, until proven otherwise. It could be as you suggest though, and he's advancing his own agenda. Rather dissappointing if that be the case. :(
 

Kirk

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Yes, I take your point. I like to give people the benefit of doubt when possible, until proven otherwise. It could be as you suggest though, and he's advancing his own agenda. Rather dissappointing if that be the case. :(
I agree. I struggle to not pontificate about people I don't know, <edit> But scientists tend to be very precise in conveying information without running the risk of having views taken out of context. That Mr. West clearly didn't do that is something I find disturbing to the point of questioning his potential overt bias.
 
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Le Wasp

Arachnoknight
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Mr. West's "Delaration of Rick C. West" is a written, signed statement. It's neither a transcript of responses during a deposition nor transcript of responses during cross examination by an attorney in court. As a declaration, Mr. West had the opportunity to place into proper context any risks of bacterial infection due to bites. The motivation for his overtly limiting the scope of his statement, given his references to conservation, smuggling, and captive breeding would appear rather apparent.
Agreed. Also, the transcript of his statements can be found on the last page of the locked thread here: http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=208990&page=12
 

esotericman

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Kirk has the exact gist of it. It was a written statement, which is on this site, used for sentencing.

I have checked pubmed/medline for the "studies" Rick refers to. There is only one from 1979, and I double checked for Canadian publications. While I do not think the US and Canada are the pinnacle or end word in all things science, citations are international.

McCoy, R., Clapper, D. "The oral flora of the south Texas tarantula, Dugesiella anax (Araneae: Theraphosidae). Journal of Medical Entomology. 16(5), pages 450-451.

It's a one page and couple paragraph "look and tell" paper based on one species of tarantula. Not all S. aureus strains result in necrotic wounds. Nor did the molecular based technology exist to identify strains which may or may not result in such infections from possibly S. aureus.

There is no link.

All opinions on legality, morals, whatever aside, this claim came from an "expert witness" and it is purely opinion. It would be exactly the same as saying all dogs carry rabies.

Had this been under the scrutiny of cross examination, instead of a statement to the court, it would not have held up.
 

patrick86

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I thought Rick was for the tarantula hobby? Statements like this are going to provide ammo to the next lawmaker who wants to ban tarantulas. I can hear it now.

Joe Senator, "Well see here a Mr. Rick West, an Arachnologist with years and years of experience says right here in his deposition that tarantulas carry flesh eating bacteria, my job as a US Senator is to protect the people, we must ban these killing machines!"

How many years of experience qualifies a person to be an Arachnologist? No formal book learning necessary?
 

Bill S

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How many years of experience qualifies a person to be an Arachnologist? No formal book learning necessary?
There is no official "expert" label out there, either for arachnologists or for other fields. People define themselves as experts by compiling a good resumé. If the jury is impressed by that resumé, the guy is an expert. If there are competing experts, the most convincing one wins - even if what makes him convincing is only personality, public speaking skills, or some other trait. We are a culture just begging to be impressed by "experts". Advertisers have used this to their advantage for many years. And lawyers do the same. It's often a case of good theatre rather than good science, unfortunately.
 

GregorSamsa

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Most infections are absolutely due to improper/lack of hand washing & therefore contaminating the wound with any nasty thing out there- and there are nasty things everywhere! S. aureus will most likely be introduced to any wound, primarily because it is a fairly common bacteria found on human & animal skin but introduction doesn't always result in colonization. And as previously mentioned, an infection from S. aureus (MRSA or not) doesn't always result in necrosis.

I do agree with Moltars statement: The natural conditions where the specimens are found creates a higher risk for introduction of bacteria. This is a risk with many arachnid species period, many of our typical house & garden spiders do scavenge on dead insects.
 

esotericman

Arachnoknight
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There is no official "expert" label out there, either for arachnologists or for other fields. If the jury is impressed by that resumé, the guy is an expert.
Correct Bill. The court decides who is or is not an "expert". In the court of law, life experiences, job titles, hobbies are equally used as degrees in the field and publications. Actually, to the courts, publications are not that valuable as they're not readily available to the public. The NIJ has been working to get standards in place for expert witnesses. Sadly, those efforts are far to late for this case.
 
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