Five Poecilotheria species - Endangered status and limitations

[Paul1126]

Maybe these countries should work harder to protect their endemic species, but no they will keep on chopping trees and destroying their habitats.

 

[SonsofArachne]

The difficult part about CITIES is that it only controls trade in flora and fauna species and how they cross boarders. It's less than perfect because as we have seen happen countless times, the flora/fauna can still be ruthlessly exploited by people within the country of origin and many are traded and sold within the country or neighbouring ones where they can easily smuggle across the boarder. Many a rare plant is plucked from the wild only to die before it ever reaches a collector or dies in the hands of someone who doesn't have the skill to keep it alive. Orchids are very commonly seen for sale in roadside markets in Asia and other tropical countries and many have been made extremely rare and often only seen in the most inaccessible habitats.
The same problem happens with fauna, and people often have to cause more damage to get specimens. Burrows excavated, trees cut down, adults killed to take their young. I think this is why so many countries forbid export of their wildlife, it's the only way to prevent people from pillaging nature to make a living. Still it can be done responsibly and countries like Thailand have beetle, butterfly, tropical fish, orchid/plant production operations that ship their products all over the world. Indonesia does the same with reptile farming. I am sure they are not perfect but they have done a good job of working within the laws to create employment within their countries and legally export around the world.
So many people get upset and they think that we need rare species in captive culture as a way to preserve them but they are not understanding the bigger picture. We will not necessarily save species that way. Our hobby produced plants and animals will not end up back in a habitat that has been destroyed and we will not come out as heroes for breeding them in captivity. What is really important is conservation of the habitats themselves and if that fails then captive reproduction is the next step. There is a really cool thing that has happened in fish keeping circles with the creation of the CARES program where keepers dedicate themselves to breeding and sustaining endangered species, especially the livebearing fish of Central America. Some of these fish are now thought to be extinct in the wild as the only known locations/populations have been destroyed. In the USA there are rare pupfish such as the Devils Hole Pupfish and a few other populations of pupfish. There was at least one population that was saved from extinction by some dedicated scientists who saved the fish from a drought that had dried up their only habitat. So there are stories of success, and organizations and hobbyists who have already laid the framework for these types of conservation programs and if people are dedicated the same thing could happen in the Tarantula hobby. Maybe organizations such as CARES would be the ideal places to ask questions to better understand how they have accomplished what they have. How they have made hobbyists into a network of dedicated breeders who help sustain species that are otherwise extremely rare and listed by CITES. I think that instead of hobbyists getting upset they should get informed and learn how these challenges have been dealt with in the past. The recent news about both Typhochlaena and the two Poecilotheria species doesn't mean it's the end of the road, it just means that things will have to be done differently than they have been in the past, and thats not a bad thing for those species. We need to stop thinking that it's our right to own these species and understand that it's a privilege. It might take a little while to iron out the wrinkles but it's all been done before, it just takes time.

https://caresforfish.org

I don't think most people in this hobby think their animals are helping protect these species, but rather that captive breeding reduces demand for smuggled animals, which has been proven with the Poecilotheria species. In fact we likely see a upturn in smuggling if less of these species are captive bred. These laws, while well meaning, won't stop smuggling or habitat loss.

 

[TyjTheMighty]

You won't really be able to do that, unfortunately. Both buyer and seller must reside in the same state for a sale to take place, so no driving to out-of-state shows to pick any up.

See I highly doubt that's gonna fly/be enforced seriously where I live (KC is in both MO and KS, and the economics of both cities rely on each other) and the show is always on the KS side, literally 10 mins from the MO side. And from what I've experienced most of the tarantula buyers are from the MO side. Even if they asked for ID, which I doubt, the ability to just find a friend or family member with a KS license would be incredibly easy.

 

[Torech Ungol]

See I highly doubt that's gonna fly/be enforced seriously where I live (KC is in both MO and KS, and the economics of both cities rely on each other) and the show is always on the KS side, literally 10 mins from the MO side. And from what I've experienced most of the tarantula buyers are from the MO side. Even if they asked for ID, which I doubt, the ability to just find a friend or family member with a KS license would be incredibly easy.

Let me clarify: you wouldn't really be able to *legally* do that. You're free to do whatever you like, just as the law enforcement agencies are free to enforce the law, irrespective of your wishes that they not. What you say can be done, no doubt, but it seems like an easy path to prison to me.

 

[Theneil]

The way i read it the transport across state lines is perfectly legal for your own collection jus not for sale, so if you went to another state and purchased one. The monetary portion is done the trading of possession is done so at that point i eould consider the transaction over and then bringing it home is merely the transport of your personal collection so long as you aren't bring it back to your home state to resell. But hey i'm not a lawyer so i could be completely wrong.

 

[Torech Ungol]

The way i read it the transport across state lines is perfectly legal for your own collection jus not for sale, so if you went to another state and purchased one. The monetary portion is done the trading of possession is done so at that point i eould consider the transaction over and then bringing it home is merely the transport of your personal collection so long as you aren't bring it back to your home state to resell. But hey i'm not a lawyer so i could be completely wrong.

The clarification screenshot posted by @lostbrane specifically defines intrastate sales as those sales between two residents of the same state.

 

[TyjTheMighty]

Let me clarify: you wouldn't really be able to *legally* do that. You're free to do whatever you like, just as the law enforcement agencies are free to enforce the law, irrespective of your wishes that they not. What you say can be done, no doubt, but it seems like an easy path to prison to me.

I get what you're saying. And I definitely agree with you. But just with the dynamics of this city, it would be EXTREMELY difficult for one to determine if they bought the T in their state of residence.

 

[Theneil]

The clarification screenshot posted by @lostbrane specifically defines intrastate sales as those sales between two residents of the same state.

i missed that little tid bit. Thank you. And i suppose it is safe to assume that the legal definition of "reside" is to have permanent residence and not to just currently be there?

 

[MetalMan2004]

I can’t quite put my finger on it but there is a joke waiting to be written about needing an ID to buy a tarantula and needing/ not needing one to vote.

 

[MintyWood826]

I sent an email to the USFWS asking why interstate sales were illegal. They did nothing to answer my question. In a rather long email, they said nearly nothing about Poecilotheria, except:

Poecilotheria species are popular in trade due to their striking coloration and large size (Nanayakkara 2014a, p. 86; Molur et al. 2006, p. 23). Two sources indicate that there is evidence of illegal smuggling from Sri Lanka, as described in our final rule, attached.

The rest was about illegal smuggling of OTHER ANIMALS and generic info. Which has nothing to do with INTERSTATE sales!

 

[WildSpider]

This seems kind of backwards. Doesn't it seem like if they isolate the species like this, there will be less breeding, not more? Am I missing something?

 

[Zepmaster]

that's how i see it too, its stupid

 

[nicodimus22]

This seems kind of backwards. Doesn't it seem like if they tighten up, there will be less breeding of these species, not more? Am I missing something?

They don't care about the continued existence of any specific animal nearly as much as making our country's import laws jive with other countries' export laws. Most of them (as is consistent with the general public) probably see no value in tarantulas anyway.

 

[MintyWood826]

making our country's import laws jive with other countries' export laws.

And it's CB Ts so no import/export! Well mostly

 

[FrDoc]

Ah, the federal government, “We have these rules for your safety, and for the good of the animals”. They don’t give a darn about anything but getting some more of your money. It’s business as usual if you write them a check for $200. Oh, it’s illegal if you don’t pay us, but if you do it’s legal. Like firearms laws are for your safety. National Firearms Act of 1934; pertaining to machine guns, explosive devices, etc., “Well, those should be illegal to own”, most opine. However, the same thing applies. I know guys who own several machine guns, suppressors, “sawed-off” shotguns, etc., they wrote a check and all is well. The almighty “tax stamp”.

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

I think @Exoskeleton Invertebrates lives in that area.. don't know how many pokies he breeds though.

I live in Utah but I don’t work with Poecilotheria species.

 

[WildSpider]

Nope, in fact, if wild conditions don't improve with respect to the species, and it won't, extinction is the inevitable result....stopping captive breeding all but guarantees this will occur one day.

I feel bad for anyone with a gravid female of these species, by the time they hatch out, they won't be able to be sold...what's the alternative...freezing the sac or raising an entre sac...no one wants to, or will raise entire sacs. The captive breeding game on these 5 species just ended.

Even though it is not preferable, another option I've heard some breeders do and I'm sure you know too is to let some of the slings cannibalize the others. At the end, there will still be some left but not so many. It would be nicer to find them all homes but I agree with you that that just isn't very realistic.

 

[lostbrane]

The rest was about illegal smuggling of OTHER ANIMALS and generic info. Which has nothing to do with INTERSTATE sales!

Sure, but the Commerce Clause is a big part of the ESA. Especially in a case like this where habitat destruction is well outside the control of the US government. The only thing they can really do is try to prevent US citizens/people residing in the US from partaking in the potential harm and/or destruction of a species. Counter-intuitive? Sure, but the idea I think comes from the right place. I know that it has definitely inspired me into researching conservation efforts.

Here's an overview of the Branch of Foreign Species, what they're about, what they say about the why they do it, etc. (sorry if this was already linked): https://www.fws.gov/endangered/esa-library/pdf/foreign_species.pdf

Also, I forgot to call in last week. I'll be sure to do so next week. I'm curious to see what, if any, conservation efforts the BFS has looked into for Poecilotheria.

 

[SonsofArachne]

I remember reading about how ZOOS stopped breeding San Francisco garter snakes (a endangered species) because they weren't allowed to release their excess stock to the public by the USFW. Read about it here.

http://www.gartersnake.co.uk/mycollection.htm#Thamnophis sirtalis tetrataenia - San Francisco garter snake

Now they are so rare here that the SF zoo had to import them from Europe to start a breeding program:

https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/SAN-FRANCISCO-City-welcomes-home-its-snake-2666478.php

This is the future for Poecilotheria

 

[viper69]

I remember reading about how ZOOS stopped breeding San Francisco garter snakes (a endangered species) because they weren't allowed to release their excess stock to the public by the USFW. Read about it here.

http://www.gartersnake.co.uk/mycollection.htm#Thamnophis sirtalis tetrataenia - San Francisco garter snake

Now they are so rare here that the SF zoo had to import them from Europe to start a breeding program:

https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/SAN-FRANCISCO-City-welcomes-home-its-snake-2666478.php

This is the future for Poecilotheria

No surprise that happened from EU. I remember these quite well, they were endangered a while ago, also hard to find back then as well. Gorgeous colors for any snake, esp a garter.